Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

bit of an unfair comparison Millsy i think - of course a club legend would get a bit of leeway, imv. i think a better example would be a complete unknown...would you feel the same way about supposed motives then?

Yes, like I said in response to steff, it's fine to think Sherwood is an arsehole (I happen to agree) it's also fine to not want him as manager of our club if someone better is available (again I agree).

It's when certain people allow the fact that he's an arsehole to completely negate anything good and mean he's totally and utterly completely to blame for absolutely anything remotely bad. That's when things get silly.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yes, like I said in response to steff, it's fine to think Sherwood is an arsehole (I happen to agree) it's also fine to not want him as manager of our club if someone better is available (again I agree).

It's when certain people allow the fact that he's an arsehole to completely negate anything good and mean he's totally and utterly completely to blame for absolutely anything remotely bad. That's when things get silly.

i do agree but i think a lot of it is borne out of the fact he is so under qualified for the job.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I've seen some sh1t posted on the internet but the above really is up there with the best of them. Christ on a bike.

I am surprised that after all this time people still give GB the time of day when he's on one of his war paths :lol:

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think Sherwood was given the "top4" mandate, in fact quite a few sources stated a while back that he was going to be judged on performances just as much a results.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB's treatment by the British press had little to do with his nationality and everything to do with how he treated them. His aloofness won him no friends in Fleet Street. They resented the fact that he didn't want to play their game and took every opportunity to put the boot it.

********, he was absolutely fine with the press but it didn't stop them sticking the boot in when he said 'we should be ashamed' after City, while Sherwood has got a relatively easy ride considering he has been way more mental.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

********, he was absolutely fine with the press but it didn't stop them sticking the boot in when he said 'we should be ashamed' after City, while Sherwood has got a relatively easy ride considering he has been way more mental.

Do you think AVB's treatment by the British press is because he is Portuguese? If you think that is that case, do you think all foreign managers get the same treatment? If not, do you think that AVB's prickliness may have been a contributing factor in the press' willingness to put the boot in?

I've seen plenty of criticism of Sherwood in the press but that is a different discussion.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Do you think AVB's treatment by the British press is because he is Portuguese? If you think that is that case, do you think all foreign managers get the same treatment? If not, do you think that AVB's prickliness may have been a contributing factor in the press' willingness to put the boot in?

I've seen plenty of criticism of Sherwood in the press but that is a different discussion.

I've seen Sherwood be just as prickly if not more, but at the same time he can come out with a matey joke about how he's the best manager we've ever had so it's all fine and we've all had a jolly good time and there's no harm in it.

AVB will just straight bat the questions but will take a journo to task if they are taking the mick e.g. 'Do you understand Hugo Lloris' frustration'. I've seen British managers be way more prickly than AVB ever is but get an easier ride. I've only ever seen AVB have a go at the press when frankly, they step out of line first and deserve it.

If we are saying 'ahh he needs to be more friendly, because he's not the press are justified' then I think that's wrong. He isn't overly matey, but he isn't prickly unless they deserve to be taken down a peg. To be honest I'm stunned that AVB is taking the blame for this when I think it's clear to see from the fall out of the City game and having his words completely mis-represented in order to form the basis of two personal attack articles - 'the beauty of Villas-Boas is that it's always someone else's fault' - compared to the coverage Sherwood has received for much more maniacal acts. It's clear to see how he gets treated, and in no way does his apparent 'prickliness' explain the sheer disparity in AVB's treatment compared to British managers'.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB was walking a tight rope with the press from day one because he was deemed a failure after being sacked by Chelsea, they didn't like him and continued to hound him through his first months at the club. They shut up after we beat Man UTD in 2012 but were always looking for a chance to have a go, that chance came this season and writers like Samuel came out calling him a fraud and questionning his credentials. I have yet to see Samuel write about how Sherwood is a fraud for talking himself up despite having only managed half a season.

The press want an idol to worship and a young English coach coaching at a top four hunting club is right up their street. I am certain that if he was a foreign manager talking about how he shouldn't be sacked despite having barely any experience the journo's wouldn't be crying foul.

Sherwood got an easy ride from the beginning because he was English. Lets imagine if he was Italian for instance, coming into the position in December people like Jamie Redknapp would be questionning his skills and asking why he has been given a shot, the appointment would've been met with derision. Sure the noises would have subsided but after the losses we have had the journos's would've stated that this fictional Italian coach wasn't ready for the spotlight, and how it was only right that a club of Tottenham's stature should look to secure someone with more experience.

I can't be the only one around here that feels the media won't be happy until we either keep him on or fall apart without him?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think Sherwood was given the "top4" mandate, in fact quite a few sources stated a while back that he was going to be judged on performances just as much a results.

Every Spurs manager is, why would Sherwood be any different? And if he got CL he would get the job full time.

 

[sc25]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The debate isn't whether Sherwood is doing/has done a good job - the debate is whether he should be appointed head coach of THFC in front of infinitley more experienced candidates like LVG

Well, it seems to me the two are related? i.e. the debate as to whether he should be appointed over a more experienced candidate would include (but is not limited to) how well he has done thus far in that job? If, for example, Sherwood had done crap and had the worst winning % in history, then he would have less of a case.

In any event, as I've said elsewhere, I'd take LVG and feel Sherwood ought to be honing his skills elsewhere at this point. That said, I'm not sure its a certainty LVG will come here, or a certainty he will pan out here if he does, or that he will stay long of he does.

Just wondering...if we finish the season well would you appoint Pochettino (reportedly in the frame, after about 3 years in management) over Sherwood?

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yes, like I said in response to steff, it's fine to think Sherwood is an arsehole (I happen to agree) it's also fine to not want him as manager of our club if someone better is available (again I agree).

It's when certain people allow the fact that he's an arsehole to completely negate anything good and mean he's totally and utterly completely to blame for absolutely anything remotely bad. That's when things get silly.

- He has a poor way of representing the club via media (lets leave it at that)
- He's desperately underqualified for the job

But again, I ask, outside of quoting some stats (cherry picked), do the people that are defending Sherwood

- Actually believe he is doing good thing with us in a football sense?
- Are we an exciting side? does it look like the football is improving? do you know what his plan/system/formation is?

 

[metalgear]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB was walking a tight rope with the press from day one because he was deemed a failure after being sacked by Chelsea, they didn't like him and continued to hound him through his first months at the club. They shut up after we beat Man UTD in 2012 but were always looking for a chance to have a go, that chance came this season and writers like Samuel came out calling him a fraud and questionning his credentials. I have yet to see Samuel write about how Sherwood is a fraud for talking himself up despite having only managed half a season.

The press want an idol to worship and a young English coach coaching at a top four hunting club is right up their street. I am certain that if he was a foreign manager talking about how he shouldn't be sacked despite having barely any experience the journo's wouldn't be crying foul.

Sherwood got an easy ride from the beginning because he was English. Lets imagine if he was Italian for instance, coming into the position in December people like Jamie Redknapp would be questionning his skills and asking why he has been given a shot, the appointment would've been met with derision. Sure the noises would have subsided but after the losses we have had the journos's would've stated that this fictional Italian coach wasn't ready for the spotlight, and how it was only right that a club of Tottenham's stature should look to secure someone with more experience.

I can't be the only one around here that feels the media won't be happy until we either keep him on or fall apart without him?

we're the media's plaything, have been for a while and will continue to do so until we demonstrate some rock solid stability. levy had a go with the press some years back (press ban) and i think it solidified their position against us. and so levy needs to right it over time. but the controversies that continue to rock us like the 'yid chant' bans, illegal spying of West Ham management and the OS debacle, etc. plus the risks we take e.g. $50m Lamela, hiring chelsea's failed coach, and then an inexperienced english coach -albeit badgeless- well we better get used to the press and the pressure of the media.

but levy needs to get involved and work on the media side of things. I only hope that Donna is as cued in with the media and is working with the next coach to avoid any sensationalist headlines (e.g. going for the title), managing players comments on social media etc. so that we can continue to work on our football and football management side of things.

sherwood to me has been a PR disaster - not unlike Redknapp, but worse. our next coach needs to be aware that this is an essential part of his job.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yes, like I said in response to steff, it's fine to think Sherwood is an arsehole (I happen to agree) it's also fine to not want him as manager of our club if someone better is available (again I agree).

It's when certain people allow the fact that he's an arsehole to completely negate anything good and mean he's totally and utterly completely to blame for absolutely anything remotely bad. That's when things get silly.

I'll call him out as a **** when he says something that makes him sound like one.

I'll call him out as an idiot when what he says makes him sound like one.

I've yet to hear him say anything that is neither.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's got nothing to do with football though. I've got no issue with people criticising him for being a d*ck in press conferences etc because he deserves that.

On footballing matters, if Ledley King had the win percentage that TS currently has there would be people on here who are currently doing everything they can to disregard it for TS who would be claiming Ledley is doing a good job for his first time in management.

There is no way Ledley King would see criticism aimed at him for individual player errors either. Something that TS has been at absolute total 100% fault for according to some posters.

He comes across as an arsehole, I can appreciate that and understand people criticising him for being an arsehole. But some posters let the fact he comes across as an arsehole completely bias their view on footballing matters when in fact those two things are mutually exclusive.

We will have to agree to disagree mate. I think they are wrapped in with each other (from a fan's perspective), just as football and emotion are inseparable, just as football and business continue to be an uncomfortable partnership for many precisely because situations cannot be judged without emotion coming into play. In fact, I cannot think of a manager we've had ever who has been viewed without 'some' sort of emotional context by someone. It's the nature of loving your club. I agree, it's good if that can be recognized, but having said that, I think King would've received some criticism in similar circumstances but without the venom precisely for the reasons we've all discussed.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I've seen Sherwood be just as prickly if not more, but at the same time he can come out with a matey joke about how he's the best manager we've ever had so it's all fine and we've all had a jolly good time and there's no harm in it.

AVB will just straight bat the questions but will take a journo to task if they are taking the mick e.g. 'Do you understand Hugo Lloris' frustration'. I've seen British managers be way more prickly than AVB ever is but get an easier ride. I've only ever seen AVB have a go at the press when frankly, they step out of line first and deserve it.

If we are saying 'ahh he needs to be more friendly, because he's not the press are justified' then I think that's wrong. He isn't overly matey, but he isn't prickly unless they deserve to be taken down a peg. To be honest I'm stunned that AVB is taking the blame for this when I think it's clear to see from the fall out of the City game and having his words completely mis-represented in order to form the basis of two personal attack articles - 'the beauty of Villas-Boas is that it's always someone else's fault' - compared to the coverage Sherwood has received for much more maniacal acts. It's clear to see how he gets treated, and in no way does his apparent 'prickliness' explain the sheer disparity in AVB's treatment compared to British managers'.

The reason the press went after AVB is because they smelled blood and because they knew that if they provoked him, he would snap because he has a strange fragile anger about him.

I have no problem with a manager laying into the press but you need to do it from a position of strength. If you listen again to the press conference where AVB has a go at Ashton, AVB has lost his temper and keeps coming back to the subject, despite a Spurs press officer trying to move the subject on. Ashton is quite calm, knowing that he is being gifted a story and free publicity for his paper. It might have felt momentarily cathartic for us to hear our manager take a pop at a tabloid journalist but ultimately he shot himself in the foot.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The reason the press went after AVB is because they smelled blood and because they knew that if they provoked him, he would snap because he has a strange fragile anger about him.

I have no problem with a manager laying into the press but you need to do it from a position of strength. If you listen again to the press conference where AVB has a go at Ashton, AVB has lost his temper and keeps coming back to the subject, despite a Spurs press officer trying to move the subject on. Ashton is quite calm, knowing that he is being gifted a story and free publicity for his paper. It might have felt momentarily cathartic for us to hear our manager take a pop at a tabloid journalist but ultimately he shot himself in the foot.

How did he shoot himself in the foot? He called Ashton out in mixing his words. It was entirely justified. I highly doubt that instance lead to his sacking or to players falling out with him for example. It was inconsequential, except with the benefit of giving us all a good laugh at Ashton's expense and seeing him massively trolled on Twitter...as well as setting then up to look like hypocrites when they give Sherwood such an easy ride which is in line with the article GB posted.

If you want prickly without provocation, check Guardiola's 'look at me when I'm talking to you' after the 1-1 at OT. I can't imagine what you'd be saying if AVB did that! But it's fine for Peo right? Position of strength because he's Bayern manager, and therefore he can be prickly when unprovoked. But because AVB is only Spurs manager, and only managed to make us finish 5th, and only just beat Hull 1-0 with a poor performance, he's not allowed to correct a journo when he's been completely misrepresented to suit an agenda?

They went for him first, and more often than not he just straight bats it, or calmly questions why Moyes wasn't getting similar coverage. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

- He has a poor way of representing the club via media (lets leave it at that)

I agree

- He's desperately underqualified for the job

I agree

But again, I ask, outside of quoting some stats (cherry picked), do the people that are defending Sherwood

- Actually believe he is doing good thing with us in a football sense?
He's doing average

- Are we an exciting side? does it look like the football is improving? do you know what his plan/system/formation is?
We score more goals but I wouldn't say we are an exciting side. At times we've looked good on the counter but on the whole no. I too have been frustrated by his continual willingness to change things.

I think you are ms-interpreting my posts. I get the impression from what you've posted above that you think I am trying to say TS is a good manager and certain posters won't admit that because they don't like him. I'm not.

What I am saying is, there are certain things that he can be given credit for, no matter what way you look at it. He hasn't been given credit for them by certain people because they don't like him (hence the Ledley King analogy, I have no doubt that Ledley would be getting credit for these things because people like him) equally he's been held totally accountable for things that he should not have been held totally accountable for. This has happened not because people actually think he is totally at fault, it's because they want him to be at fault because if they convince enough people then they will join the hate mob.

If everyone looked at everything objectively without the bias, he still hasn't done enough on the footballing front to be our manager. He certainly hasn't done enough on the PR front either, but that doesn't mean he can't be given credit where credit is due and criticism where criticism is due.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We will have to agree to disagree mate. I think they are wrapped in with each other (from a fan's perspective), just as football and emotion are inseparable, just as football and business continue to be an uncomfortable partnership for many precisely because situations cannot be judged without emotion coming into play. In fact, I cannot think of a manager we've had ever who has been viewed without 'some' sort of emotional context by someone. It's the nature of loving your club. I agree, it's good if that can be recognized, but having said that, I think King would've received some criticism in similar circumstances but without the venom precisely for the reasons we've all discussed.

From a 'is this man the right man to take our club forward' perspective then I totally agree, they are wrapped in each other. For the record I don't think hes done enough to keep his job if someone better is available.

But when he does something right, I'll give him credit for doing something right rather than wheel out every possible excuse going so that he is not given any credit. Same way that when he does something wrong I'll criticise him in a way that reflects the level of wrongness rather than take something that is not completely within his control and make it out as if he is totally to blame for it.

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I've seen Sherwood be just as prickly if not more [than AVB]....

Anybody who agrees with this is simply no longer thinking straight.

I get that you guys hate Sherwood. That's fine, and there are some fair arguments to back up that case. But when you start saying things like he's more prickly with the press than AVB, this is so self-evidently not true that all credibility washes away.

You don't attack the fans and you don't attack the press. That's the law. You and I mightn't like the law, but it is written in stone and is a reality within which all managers have to operate. Once you do either, you're dead. And AVB did both within a week or two of each other.

Rationalisations - "He was justified! They were being horrible to him! Foreign managers get a hard time!" - simply sound naive and tin-eared. If a manager doesn't understand the politics of this, he's in trouble.

...but at the same time he can come out with a matey joke about how he's the best manager we've ever had so it's all fine and we've all had a jolly good time and there's no harm in it.

This is supposed to prove Sherwood is a sneak, but it doesn't actually prove that at all. What it proves is that he understands the politics. He gets the game, and he's playing it. It shows the opposite of what you think it does - it shows temperamental suitability to the job, not unsuitability.

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

- Actually believe he is doing good thing with us in a football sense?
- Are we an exciting side? does it look like the football is improving? do you know what his plan/system/formation is?

You've asked this question twice now, so I'll do a TL/DR on it even though I'm going to get destroyed for it.

Honest answers.

1. Are we playing well? Do you know what his plan/system/formation is?

I think we are playing pretty well. But more than that, I think there are very interesting signs on the pitch.

There are two types of managers: System managers (Wenger, AVB, Rodgers) and flexible/pragmatic managers (Pep, Jose, Fergie). Both approaches can work, but personally I favour the latter. Flexible/pragmatic systems can be either exciting/attacking (Fergie/Pep), or boring/defensive (Jose). I think Sherwood is one of these flexible types, and I think he's clearly at the attacking end of that scale.

For example, he doesn't seem dogmatically obsessed with DM's like so many are nowadays. It was so dispiriting to see so many Spurs fans - Spurs fans! - losing the head the other night against Sunderland because we didn't have a DM against the worst team in the league at home. Sherwood decided there was no need for it - just put decent footballers like Chadli and Paulinho in front of the back 4 and that's enough of a shield whilst also giving us loads more go-forward. And that's exactly what happened. Horses for courses, not systems and DM's who aren't needed. Sherwood owned GG in the tactics stakes on Monday night.

Nobody else agrees with me, but in my very strong opinion the loss to Liverpool had nothing whatsoever to do with tactics. We'll never know what the tactical game would have been because we were buried after 1 minute and then again on 25 (we all now why.) But the thing for me is that Sherwood rejected the clichéd, lazy tact of playing counter-attack. It sounds so tempting and obvious a thing to do, but is actually a TERRIBLE tactic against Liverpool, esp. with our defence. So instead, the plan was to attack their crappy defence rather than inviting them to attack our crappy defence. I really liked Sherwood's rejection of the easy, obvious option, and I'm sorry we never saw how it worked. The point is he was thinking.

We were good against Arsenal (we were played off the park at their place) and against Chelsea for an hour (they were in flying form at the time). In 16 games, only against Norwich have we been truly, irredeemably hopeless. (There's a good argument that judging Sherwood at all on his first 4 or 5 games when he hardly had a spare day to work on the training pitch is unfair).

I think we've been...interesting. I am very tempted to see how these experiments might progress.


2. Does it look like the football is improving?

Eriksen - Serious step up in class/performance in recent weeks. And how many of us spotted that wide left was his best position? Certainly not me.
Chadli - Who thought he'd be effective in the middle? He's doing the job we all wish Dembele would do, and all thought Pauli would be doing. Who knew?
Soldado - Injury came at terrible time because he was so, so good against Southampton. I'm not saying that's definitely down to something Sherwood did, but it might be.
Ade - The salute said it all.
Bentaleb - How many of the people abusing Sherwood the other night for not playing Bentaleb had never even heard of Bentaleb 6 months ago? Fair's fair for crying out loud. What does Sherwood's spotting, nurturing and trusting this guy say about Sherwood? And what does it say that he had the nuts to believe in what he saw and stuck him straight into the first team? (Note to Scara: Bentaleb is not Glenn Whelan.)
Paulinho - Did anyone see him SMILING on the pitch the other night? He's been dire all season, but the other night he looked a bit more like the player he surely can be. Again, may not be down to Sherwood, but who knows?

What players have gone backwards?

Vertonghen - I honestly don't think this has anything to do with Sherwood - Jan wants out and has done for some time, and I think at this stage many Spurs fans want him out too. If Sherwood was talking about Jan when he said there were some he doesn't trust, how many Spurs fans would argue with that? I don't want him at the club any more (barring a big mea culpa/humble pie eating).
Capoue - I don't like how Sherwood has treated Capoue at all. It has been disrespectful of a guy who I hear is very good. Black mark against Sherwood for sure.
Sandro - I honestly don't think he's fit. He was magnificent at CB in Lisbon, but picked up a knock there and then was out of the team because of rotation. I don't think there's a Sherwood issue here at all. Sandro still Tweeting like a good thing and talking positively.

Overall, I see more positives about fulfilling potential and progressing then negatives.


3. Are we an exciting side?

It's a work in progress. More exciting than under AVB? I can't believe even Sherwood's harshest critics would deny we're more attacking and are creating more chances.