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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

Do you want Tim Sherwood to stay as manager?


  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Umm AVBs win ratio was largely (and luckily) down to Gareth Bale. Article ended.

AVB won 21 of 38 PL games with Bale (55.26%) in 2012-13.
And 8 of 16 PL games without Bale (50%) in 2013-14.

Sherwood has won 10 of 17 PL games without Bale (58.82%) in 2013-14.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So by the end of the season Sherwood's win % could easily be 60%+

That's absolutely crazy :)

Mind blown.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So without Bale AVBs was 50%, still good but 10% less than Tim and also our performance and results were getting steadily worse every game.

My point was really that the article above has made a ton of conclusions based purely on the win % and ignored any other factors


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That means that when Villas-Boas was sacked in December...


Stopped reading there.*









* Actually, I didn't, I read the whole piece, but I wish I'd stopped because the rest of it is gobbledegook.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB/Sherwood contrast hints at English football's fear of change

Tim Sherwood had a beaming smile on his face as he said it.

Tottenham's press officer had already warned the assembled throng of journalists to cease and desist with the questions about his future. Less probing about where he stands, please, and more about the 5-1 victory over Sunderland, if you could. One sneaked through the net.

Does he, came the enquiry, believe he is the right man to lead the White Hart Lane side forward beyond this season? "I think I'm the best manager this club's ever had," Sherwood replied. From the look on his face, he was joking. At least, I think he was joking. He's not short on confidence, Tim Sherwood.

In his defence, there is at least one statistic that would back his assertion up if it turned out he was serious. It has been produced over the last few days to outline the folly of Spurs -- as they will -- dispensing with Sherwood in the summer.

The stat is this: Sherwood has the best win percentage of any Spurs manager in the Premier League era. He has emerged with three points from 58.8 percent of his 17 games in charge. His nearest challenger has 53.7 percent, albeit from a much larger sample of 54 games.

This is made more intriguing by the identity of the man in second place: Andre Villas-Boas, the man Sherwood replaced, the man who was chased out of north London, branded a charlatan and a fraud, told by all and sundry he is too young, too callow, too cold, too scientific, too arrogant to be a top-class manager.

That means that when Villas-Boas was sacked in December, he was in the same position as Sherwood is now: he was Spurs' most successful manager of the last 20 years in terms of results.

And so why, when Villas-Boas departed, was there no wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth? Where was the statistic proving how well he had done in his 18 months at Tottenham then? Why did he leave in a fire-storm of criticism? Why, when he returned to the world of gainful employment at Zenit St Petersburg, was the general reaction that he had hoodwinked another club? Why was he not afforded the same treatment as Sherwood: painted as a victim of a cruel and callous regime, a young coach with big ideas and big plans who deserved more of a shot?

Is it because of that slender difference in their win ratios? Is it because Villas-Boas sidelined Emmanuel Adebayor, whereas Sherwood has embraced him and reaped the rewards? Is it because Villas-Boas was not popular among the players? Is it because his tactics were not working, or his vision for the club was flawed?

None of these adequately explains it.

The difference in their win ratios is five per cent -- substantial enough -- but their sample sizes are not comparable. Villas-Boas sidelined Adebayor, but then Sherwood has hardly made an effort to incorporate some of Spurs' expensive summer signings; he has disclosed privately that there are five of them he just does not rate.

Villas-Boas commanded some loyalty among his squad -- so, too, does Sherwood -- and no manager is ever universally popular. In terms of tactics and vision, Villas-Boas was not perfect, but few would suggest that Sherwood -- in his first job in management -- is.

So, then, is it age? Well, possibly, but for all the Sherwood is seven years older, he has substantially less experience: Villas-Boas, after all, came to Spurs having managed four clubs with varying degrees of success; Sherwood was on zero.

There is one other explanation, and it is one Villas-Boas hinted at while he was still at White Hart Lane. The Portuguese was a little confused as to why he was under so much pressure when Manchester United, the reigning champions, seemed to be escaping the media spotlight.

"For the champions of England to be sitting in their position, there has not been a lot of drama," he said, at a time when David Moyes' side were eighth in the Premier League. "I was involved in another club before and there was more drama surrounding my results than Man United's results."

That means one of three things: expectations are higher at Chelsea than United (not true), there is a personal agenda against Villas-Boas (possible, but incomplete) or -- and this is the one Villas-Boas himself would go for -- foreign coaches get a rougher time of it in England than their home-grown counterparts.

The contrasting treatment of the Portuguese and Sherwood certainly suggests that there is something in that. In fact, a flick through the history of imported managers in the Premier League provides reams of circumstantial supporting evidence.

Claudio Ranieri was widely derided as the "Tinkerman" for his habit of mixing and matching his players. Rafael Benitez was labelled cynical, cold and defensive for his 4-2-3-1 formation -- pretty much de rigeur in the Premier League these days -- and foolish for his obsession with zonal marking. So, too, was Luiz Felipe Scolari. Juande Ramos, like Villas-Boas and Michael Laudrup, was dismissed as unable to establish a dressing room rapport with his players.

The pattern that emerges is clear: the automatic reaction to a foreign manager seems to be suspicion, followed swiftly by derision and then vindication as his reign comes to an end. Never mind that everyone rotates now, that loads of teams play a 4-2-3-1 and that zonal marking is as common as man-to-man*; Ranieri, Benitez and the like were always destined to fail, because this is England and in England, that is not the way we do things.

(*Ranieri and Benitez did not invent these concepts, obviously, They did not even introduce them to England. But they were associated with these strange new ideas that would, as received wisdom had it, never catch on.)

The easy conclusion here is that the media is xenophobic. That, though, is too simplistic. For a start, the "media" as it is conceived in the public imagination does not exist. It is constructed of disparate organisations and, within them, hundreds and thousands of individuals, each with their own beliefs and views and all of them doing different jobs.

There are no shadowy meetings at which journalists decide they are going to knife Villas-Boas, say. There is no set agenda. There are as many reporters and writers who have no time for Jose Mourinho as agree with him that he is a supreme being, descended from heaven.

Most of these individuals, moreover, are (relatively) young, open-minded, well-educated individuals -- even Iain Macintosh. They are as unlikely to be xenophobes as they are racists. Besides, even those few who do resent the cosmopolitan make-up of English football would accept we are through the looking glass: it is no good trying to get rid of one foreigner, because -- like the Hydra -- it would most likely only result in a fresh one arriving.

No, the "media" and the people who constitute it are not xenophobic. The underlying cause is more complex than that. It is, in some way, down to a legitimate and genuine anxiety over whether English coaches are given enough opportunity, though this has always been a personal bugbear: the block on home-grown managerial talent is not imports but the wizened, proven failures who clog up the jobs at the upper end of the Championship.

There are good young coaches in England, lots of them. Yet they are forever destined to remain in the lower tiers -- either of the league or the ranks -- because they cannot get those stepping-stone jobs to alert Premier League sides to their talent; not because there are lots of foreigners, but because people like Stuart Pearce and Neil Warnock are the first names on any club's list of candidates.

That is a symptom of the crucial underlying factor: English football does not like change. It does not like new ideas. It does not appreciate being told that it has been doing things wrong, or that there is a different way to look at things. What unites Ranieri, Benitez and Villas-Boas is not that they are from different countries. It is that they are all ostensibly "other."

There are foreign managers who have come to England and been feted. Arsene Wenger had to endure scepticism at first, but he soon won the country round. Mourinho turned grown adults into love-sick teenagers with but a glance. Why? Partly because they won, and fast; it is hard to argue with results as spectacular as both managed.

But also because they fit our model of a manager. They are foreign, but they are not other. They are of us. We understand them. They want complete control, they are demagogues, they do not come up with complex new ideas or seem to be telling us we are doing things wrong. They do it our way; they just do it better. That is much easier to swallow.

It is hard to think of a better example of this than Sherwood and Villas-Boas: the former all passion and heart and keeping it simple, the latter all data and low blocks and rotating sixes. One is ours, another is different, inexorably different. We get one, and we are sad to see it leave; the other is a mystery we do not want to solve.

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/13529?cc=5739

AVB's treatment by the British press had little to do with his nationality and everything to do with how he treated them. His aloofness won him no friends in Fleet Street. They resented the fact that he didn't want to play their game and took every opportunity to put the boot it.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So by the end of the season Sherwood's win % could easily be 60%+

That's absolutely crazy :)

Mind blown.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

Not really. It's due to the widening gap from the bottom 13. 68.4% of games are easy.


AVB's treatment by the British press had little to do with his nationality and everything to do with how he treated them. His aloofness won him no friends in Fleet Street. They resented the fact that he didn't want to play their game and took every opportunity to put the boot it.

There was a broadsheet/tabloid divide IMO. AVB had supporters/sympathisers at the Telegraph and Guardian. It was the red tops that didn't like him. Reversely the broadsheets were much quicker in criticising Timmeh, whereas the tabloids still defend him.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not really. It's due to the widening gap from the bottom 13. 68.4% of games are easy.




There was a broadsheet/tabloid divide IMO. AVB had supporters/sympathisers at the Telegraph and Guardian. It was the red tops that didn't like him. Reversely the broadsheets were much quicker in criticising Timmeh, whereas the tabloids still defend him.

Have you had a listen to the Second Captain podcast immediately after AVB was given the sack? They talk a little bit about how AVB alienated the press and I think that the Irish press are no where near as ours on the whole.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really think I missing something here ...

- Lets forget AVB, he's gone, don't think anyone thought he was doing a great job .. no point discussing

- Re TS however, all the people with the 58% stats (from an irrelevantly small sample size), all the people who for some reason or another think TS should be given a chance, here's the question

Do you believe we are

- Playing well under TS?
- Playing at anything close to our ability level?
- If not .. why not?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I would put to you that you would give Ledley credit where credit is due though, something you will never do for TS.

But anyways, that's a bit of a pointless discussion which has been done to death by now. I think it's fairly well established (and not actually denied by you) that the reasons you won't give him any credit for anything are nothing to do with football.

I have to say, comparing Ledley with Timbo is slightly egregious to me…and absolutely, Ledley would get an easier ride from me for sure. Look at the man. He never opens his mouth, never says things out of turn, never looks to 'express' his opinion (even his attempts at punditry could be considered -politely- safe) so absolutely he'd get a much bigger pass, and that's absolutely down to the character he presents as a representative of our club. Timbo does not get that quite simply because he has not earned it; he does have to work harder for it. Be honest in return - do YOU see Tim Sherwood and Ledley King is worthy equals of your gut-instinct, emotional reactions?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I can guarantee you that the same Spurs fans who are baying for Sherwood's blood (despite his excellent PL record) will use every excuse in the book to plead for the new manager to be given more time, no matter how well or badly he's done.

I will ask you the same (general) question as I have asked Millsy; can you see a difference between the man's record and his insatiable appetite for self-promotion/chaos/being 'the man'? I speak as someone who (stated previously but here again for the record) did not like him on entry, put it to one side to try and give him the best chance, watched aghast at his cluelessness the past month and lost any respect for him on Monday due to suspected (unproven as of now - legal disclaimer) involvement in media affairs...
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood's win %, as with any manager, is definitely relevant. We all know that if it were lower, the haters would be citing it. You can't have it both ways. If he goes at the end of the season and has a win % in the 60's then its surely an indication - as a rookie taking over mid-season in the PL - that he will have done a good job, whether you happen to like him or not, or whether its right to hire LVG or not.

As far as whether 'playing at our ability level', I'd say our results and position in the table is reflective of our players. I don't believe that this group of players, as currently assembled, is top 4. And, we're not. Thus, pursuant to that, you will no doubt see players coming and going in the summer.
 
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Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB's treatment by the British press had little to do with his nationality and everything to do with how he treated them. His aloofness won him no friends in Fleet Street. They resented the fact that he didn't want to play their game and took every opportunity to put the boot it.

I would take it a stage further…

I think he did a wonderful job with the press for 12 months, but come summer, when one target too many didn't happen, when Bale left, when he couldn't handle the Ade situation and when he felt true pressure, he reverted to 'Chelsea-type' and retreated within himself, hunkered down, self-isolated because IMO he didn't know how to deal with the situations due to lack of experience, and forced the issue on Levy in the end.

Levy probably thought he'd done great things for AVB, but he also needs a re-focus in terms of what HE sees as support versus what a manager FEELS is support. In the end, AVB's position was untennable because (IMO) he helped make it so. A terrible shame as I believe he was close to breaking wide-open a platform and structure which would've benefitted us for years and years. But the performances this season, and much ore importantly, the ATTITUDE and spirit he lost within himself and his work, made it untennable.

Sherwood is extraordinary.
Ruthlessly ambitious, he got the job, he forced an 18 month deal, he refused short-term striker help (personally I agree with his decision) on the pretext that he wanted to do it 'his way' with the squad at hand…and it didn't quite work out like he thought. With pressure building and rumours rife, far from shrinking away, Timbo built a protective layer and developed a few strategic protective media elements to make absolutely sure he wouldn't get outsmarted or done over.
I have no problem with protecting yourself, but the way in which he appears to have gone about things is what really ****es me off. When he speaks now, it's Tim Sherwood thinly disguised as Tim Sherwood, Spurs manager.

In truth, like we agreed last week, I just want the summer to come and the deadwood cleared out so as we can get back to supporting the club!!!!!!
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood's win %, as with any manager, is definitely relevant. We all know that if it were lower, the haters would be citing it. You can't have it both ways. If he goes at the end of the season and has a win % in the 60's then its surely an indication - as a rookie taking over mid-season in the PL - that he will have done a good job, whether you happen to like him or not, or whether its right to hire LVG or not.

As far as whether 'playing at our ability level', I'd say our results and position in the table is reflective of our players. I don't believe that this group of players, as currently assembled, is top 4. And, we're not. Thus, pursuant to that, you will no doubt see players coming and going in the summer.

would you hire a man with no prior experience who came in to the Everton job for half a season just because he had a good win % at the end of it?

the debate isn't whether Sherwood is doing/has done a good job - the debate is whether he should be appointed head coach of THFC in front of infinitley more experienced candidates like LVG
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really think I missing something here ...

- Lets forget AVB, he's gone, don't think anyone thought he was doing a great job .. no point discussing

- Re TS however, all the people with the 58% stats (from an irrelevantly small sample size), all the people who for some reason or another think TS should be given a chance, here's the question

Do you believe we are

- Playing well under TS?
- Playing at anything close to our ability level?
- If not .. why not?


The key is the sample size. Its too small to judge TS. Its also too small to judge our playing style and coherence. TS has come in mid season with the mandate: get 4th at all cost. He doesn't have a mandate to build a team who'll do well next year. He knows he won't be here next year if he does what Rodgers did at 'Pool for example - get the team playing in the right way but lose games in the process.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There was a broadsheet/tabloid divide IMO. AVB had supporters/sympathisers at the Telegraph and Guardian. It was the red tops that didn't like him. Reversely the broadsheets were much quicker in criticising Timmeh, whereas the tabloids still defend him.

[SOUNDCLOUD]https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/second-captains-football-17-12[/SOUNDCLOUD]

Start from 26:30.

It is not quite as I remember it but they do talk about his prickliness and lack of humour. I think that it is still an interesting listen and reasonably balanced.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I have to say, comparing Ledley with Timbo is slightly egregious to me…and absolutely, Ledley would get an easier ride from me for sure. Look at the man. He never opens his mouth, never says things out of turn, never looks to 'express' his opinion (even his attempts at punditry could be considered -politely- safe) so absolutely he'd get a much bigger pass, and that's absolutely down to the character he presents as a representative of our club. Timbo does not get that quite simply because he has not earned it; he does have to work harder for it. Be honest in return - do YOU see Tim Sherwood and Ledley King is worthy equals of your gut-instinct, emotional reactions?

That's got nothing to do with football though. I've got no issue with people criticising him for being a d*ck in press conferences etc because he deserves that.

On footballing matters, if Ledley King had the win percentage that TS currently has there would be people on here who are currently doing everything they can to disregard it for TS who would be claiming Ledley is doing a good job for his first time in management.

There is no way Ledley King would see criticism aimed at him for individual player errors either. Something that TS has been at absolute total 100% fault for according to some posters.

He comes across as an arsehole, I can appreciate that and understand people criticising him for being an arsehole. But some posters let the fact he comes across as an arsehole completely bias their view on footballing matters when in fact those two things are mutually exclusive.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

bit of an unfair comparison Millsy i think - of course a club legend would get a bit of leeway, imv. i think a better example would be a complete unknown...would you feel the same way about supposed motives then?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

bit of an unfair comparison Millsy i think - of course a club legend would get a bit of leeway, imv. i think a better example would be a complete unknown...would you feel the same way about supposed motives then?

Freund would have got more leeway that Sherwood despite them both having similar levels of experience (despite what Scara and GB have suggested) and both being **** players for us.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

maybe - can only speak for myself but it'd be the same, but then im not really on Sherwoods back either
 
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