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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

Do you want Tim Sherwood to stay as manager?


  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The real question is are we competitive? Can we compete with the top sides? Have we moved on in the last three years? Does the club have a clear direction? Can we see TS moving us forward positively?

Even the most optimistic Spurs fan would have to answer no to all of these questions. TS seems to think that playing with passion is the key to success. Well Mourinho showed this week that you have to know your tactics and be able to make bold decisions when things are not working. Not saying TS will not learn these things but I personally do not want to wait around to see if he does and I do not want to be paying another £900 in the process on the off chance that he "may" become a great manager.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Pep is not a system manager? It's a bit off the topic of the thread, but care to explain how you got that opinion? I feel he is the best example of a system manager in the world
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Anybody who agrees with this is simply no longer thinking straight.

I get that you guys hate Sherwood. That's fine, and there are some fair arguments to back up that case. But when you start saying things like he's more prickly with the press than AVB, this is so self-evidently not true that all credibility washes away.

You don't attack the fans and you don't attack the press. That's the law. You and I mightn't like the law, but it is written in stone and is a reality within which all managers have to operate. Once you do either, you're dead. And AVB did both within a week or two of each other.

Rationalisations - "He was justified! They were being horrible to him! Foreign managers get a hard time!" - simply sound naive and tin-eared. If a manager doesn't understand the politics of this, he's in trouble.



This is supposed to prove Sherwood is a sneak, but it doesn't actually prove that at all. What it proves is that he understands the politics. He gets the game, and he's playing it. It shows the opposite of what you think it does - it shows temperamental suitability to the job, not unsuitability.

Oh maaaan, I think you're going too much the other way in trying to give balance to the Sherwood debate. FYI I don't hate him, I was espousing the virtues of his style of management a few weeks into his reign. So my criticisms aren't because I don't like him but more because I think he's clearly getting an easier ride than the guy he replaced.

With his mates, with Ashton and the like, Sherwood can be a hoot I'm sure. In a way AVB never is. If you're a Daily Mail journo you'd never want to go for a beer with AVB for sure. But with some of the other school of journalists, the more tactical, the less 'the game is about passion', Sherwood has straight batted their questions in the same manner you would describe AVB as being 'prickly'.

As for it being 'the law', I think that's nonsense. AVB isn't the only manager to say the fans need to get behind the team more (You remember Sherwood arguing with a fan mid-game to do the exact same thing right?) and he isn't the only manager to call out the press on their bull****. He probably is one of the only managers that I can remember though that had his quotes deliberately mis-represented in order to suit the tone of an opinion piece questioning his character. I can't think of any real, tangible reason that would suggest that AVB should not be allowed to correct them publicly and show them up for what they are.

Especially when Tim's outburst post Chelsea (which I thought was fantastic, BTW) was far, far more critical of the players than AVB has ever been. He has constantly distanced himself from the players in the manner of the master Harry. Does he get opinion pieces questioning his personal character in the way AVB did? Nah. He's a bit of a loveable rogue. He's passionate. He's English. He gets us. Woopdidoo for Sherwood understanding the politics of getting the Daily Mail on his side. If this is the criteria we are looking for in a manager, we have fallen a long way for sure.

The funny thing is I was actually really impressed with Sherwood's political acumen in getting the job, in getting the contract he wanted, and getting to see out the transfer window how he wanted it. I thought it showed the signs of a winner, who as you say, 'gets' what it takes to succeed in this world. But I think what's been shown is that being a good political operator doesn't equate to being as good as a manager. I myself am probably much better in job interviews and networking than I am at actually doing the job - I could easily be back in the sticks where I grew up rather than the position I am in now, but I made good decisions and knew how to get people on side. Doesn't mean I'm a fantastic operator in what I do. I mean I might be. But I don't think Sherwood's political skill means he is a good manager. He's just a good politician with no managerial experience.

Just to finish off this post, if you're saying the guy that throws his gilet to the floor in a fit of rage because the opposition has breached the high line, or the guy that has to sit in the stands because he admitted himself he can't control himself and doesn't want to get in to trouble, is the guy with the temperamental suitability for the job, then I just have to strongly disagree.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Pep is not a system manager? It's a bit off the topic of the thread, but care to explain how you got that opinion? I feel he is the best example of a system manager in the world


Are there system managers and pragmatic managers or not? That's the only point I'm trying to make. If I'm wrong about Pep, fine, but it doesn't change the point.

My understanding is that Pep's system at Barca is not the same as the one at Bayern. At Bayern he uses the wide players they have there whereas at Barca the personnel didn't suit that so it was more classic tika-taka. He played Lahm at DM last night, and Muller in the right channel and his team had a formational fluidity to it - the front 4 or 5 popping up all over the place - in a way you didn't see quite so much at Barca where it was about intricate triangles but players essentially playing in their positions - Xavi and Inesta always staying in the middle, FB's bombing forward, Messi always No. 10 (I'm not sure Bayern even had a classic No. 10 last night). At Bayern, it's more fluid because that suits the personnel and Bundesliga. I'm not talking about a "system" in the general sense of "He wants his team to pass and attack".

Anyway, if I'm wrong about that I think we'd at least agree that Jose is a good example of a pragmatic manager. Fergie too I'd say - his teams played all sorts of different ways over the years - one up front, two up front, 2 DM's, 1 DM, no DM etc. Ancellotti too maybe? Not sure.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Oh maaaan, I think you're going too much the other way in trying to give balance to the Sherwood debate. FYI I don't hate him, I was espousing the virtues of his style of management a few weeks into his reign. So my criticisms aren't because I don't like him but more because I think he's clearly getting an easier ride than the guy he replaced.

With his mates, with Ashton and the like, Sherwood can be a hoot I'm sure. In a way AVB never is. If you're a Daily Mail journo you'd never want to go for a beer with AVB for sure. But with some of the other school of journalists, the more tactical, the less 'the game is about passion', Sherwood has straight batted their questions in the same manner you would describe AVB as being 'prickly'.

As for it being 'the law', I think that's nonsense. AVB isn't the only manager to say the fans need to get behind the team more (You remember Sherwood arguing with a fan mid-game to do the exact same thing right?) and he isn't the only manager to call out the press on their bull****. He probably is one of the only managers that I can remember though that had his quotes deliberately mis-represented in order to suit the tone of an opinion piece questioning his character. I can't think of any real, tangible reason that would suggest that AVB should not be allowed to correct them publicly and show them up for what they are.

Especially when Tim's outburst post Chelsea (which I thought was fantastic, BTW) was far, far more critical of the players than AVB has ever been. He has constantly distanced himself from the players in the manner of the master Harry. Does he get opinion pieces questioning his personal character in the way AVB did? Nah. He's a bit of a loveable rogue. He's passionate. He's English. He gets us. Woopdidoo for Sherwood understanding the politics of getting the Daily Mail on his side. If this is the criteria we are looking for in a manager, we have fallen a long way for sure.

The funny thing is I was actually really impressed with Sherwood's political acumen in getting the job, in getting the contract he wanted, and getting to see out the transfer window how he wanted it. I thought it showed the signs of a winner, who as you say, 'gets' what it takes to succeed in this world. But I think what's been shown is that being a good political operator doesn't equate to being as good as a manager. I myself am probably much better in job interviews and networking than I am at actually doing the job - I could easily be back in the sticks where I grew up rather than the position I am in now, but I made good decisions and knew how to get people on side. Doesn't mean I'm a fantastic operator in what I do. I mean I might be. But I don't think Sherwood's political skill means he is a good manager. He's just a good politician with no managerial experience.

Just to finish off this post, if you're saying the guy that throws his gilet to the floor in a fit of rage because the opposition has breached the high line, or the guy that has to sit in the stands because he admitted himself he can't control himself and doesn't want to get in to trouble, is the guy with the temperamental suitability for the job, then I just have to strongly disagree.

A small point but everyone who deals with the press has their words twisted to suit a narrative.

By dealing with the way he did AVB gave the story legs and more people became aware of it as a result.

As I have said, I am not against managers picking up the press but you need to do it from a position of strength.

There is an unpleasant playground bully element to the British tabloid press. By showing that something had got to him, AVB just invited more of the same.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A small point but everyone who deals with the press has their words twisted to suit a narrative.

By dealing with the way he did AVB gave the story legs and more people became aware of it as a result.

As I have said, I am not against managers picking up the press but you need to do it from a position of strength.

There is an unpleasant playground bully element to the British tabloid press. By showing that something had got to him, AVB just invited more of the same.

Bring me another example of a manager that was delibrately mis-quoted in order to form the basis of an attack piece.

I can think of Moyes in the summer when we said 'My thoughts are, if there's ever an injury to Van Persie, we'll need Wayne' which was taken to mean he was prepping Rooney for a back up role rather than the fact that he would have to really rely on Rooney were RVP to go down. But it wasn't like they were taking on Moyes from a personal level, they were just mis-understanding the story. And to be honest, considering how long they ran with that, maybe Moyes was intending to play with Rooney's head a bit and they got it right.

But seriously, other than that, I really don't see many deliberate mis-representings. AVB didn't invite more of the same because after that, they never did it again.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'll call him out as a **** when he says something that makes him sound like one.

I'll call him out as an idiot when what he says makes him sound like one.

I've yet to hear him say anything that is neither.

But on footballing matters you've failed to give him credit for anything that he deserves credit for.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A small point but everyone who deals with the press has their words twisted to suit a narrative.

By dealing with the way he did AVB gave the story legs and more people became aware of it as a result.

As I have said, I am not against managers picking up the press but you need to do it from a position of strength.

There is an unpleasant playground bully element to the British tabloid press. By showing that something had got to him, AVB just invited more of the same.

the press in other countries are just as bad.....look at someone like LVG, he has fallen out with the press in Holland, Spain and Germany:) Mourinho had problems with the press in Italy and Spain
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

the press in other countries are just as bad.....look at someone like LVG, he has fallen out with the press in Holland, Spain and Germany:) Mourinho had problems with the press in Italy and Spain

Fair point
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Bring me another example of a manager that was delibrately mis-quoted in order to form the basis of an attack piece.

I can think of Moyes in the summer when we said 'My thoughts are, if there's ever an injury to Van Persie, we'll need Wayne' which was taken to mean he was prepping Rooney for a back up role rather than the fact that he would have to really rely on Rooney were RVP to go down. But it wasn't like they were taking on Moyes from a personal level, they were just mis-understanding the story. And to be honest, considering how long they ran with that, maybe Moyes was intending to play with Rooney's head a bit and they got it right.

But seriously, other than that, I really don't see many deliberate mis-representings. AVB didn't invite more of the same because after that, they never did it again.

Ironically (even though he has made a complete c*ck of himself in the press on multiple occasions), TS has been purposely misinterpreted on here to suit certain agendas.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Bring me another example of was delibrately mis-quoted in order to form the basis of an attack piece.

I can think of Moyes in the summer when we said 'My thoughts are, if there's ever an injury to Van Persie, we'll need Wayne' which was taken to mean he was prepping Rooney for a back up role rather than the fact that he would have to really rely on Rooney were RVP to go down. But it wasn't like they were taking on Moyes from a personal level, they were just mis-understanding the story. And to be honest, considering how long they ran with that, maybe Moyes was intending to play with Rooney's head a bit and they got it right.

But seriously, other than that, I really don't see many deliberate mis-representings. AVB didn't invite more of the same because after that, they never did it again.

I think that you not being able to recall another occasion rather undermines your argument that AVB received the treatment he did because of his nationality.

The press hostility towards him did not cool after his outburst, if anything it intensified.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that you not being able to recall another occasion rather undermines your argument that AVB received the treatment he did because of his nationality.

The press hostility towards him did not cool after his outburst, if anything it intensified.

It really didn't. We won a couple of games and they were laying off. They also cooled off with the personal attacks.

I can't recall another occasion when a manager has had his words deliberately mis-quoted to suit an agenda...because I don't think it is that common? If I could real loads of examples off the top of my head, I wouldn't exactly have a point would I?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Are there system managers and pragmatic managers or not? That's the only point I'm trying to make. If I'm wrong about Pep, fine, but it doesn't change the point.

My understanding is that Pep's system at Barca is not the same as the one at Bayern. At Bayern he uses the wide players they have there whereas at Barca the personnel didn't suit that so it was more classic tika-taka. He played Lahm at DM last night, and Muller in the right channel and his team had a formational fluidity to it - the front 4 or 5 popping up all over the place - in a way you didn't see quite so much at Barca where it was about intricate triangles but players essentially playing in their positions - Xavi and Inesta always staying in the middle, FB's bombing forward, Messi always No. 10 (I'm not sure Bayern even had a classic No. 10 last night). At Bayern, it's more fluid because that suits the personnel and Bundesliga. I'm not talking about a "system" in the general sense of "He wants his team to pass and attack".

Anyway, if I'm wrong about that I think we'd at least agree that Jose is a good example of a pragmatic manager. Fergie too I'd say - his teams played all sorts of different ways over the years - one up front, two up front, 2 DM's, 1 DM, no DM etc. Ancellotti too maybe? Not sure.

I know what you mean about Fergie and Mourinho, who are (were?) both reactionary managers in the sense they have a plan B, but I do feel Pep has his ideas and it is down to the opposition to stop his team playing. I wan't trying to take away from your main point, just a curiosity I had.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

TS seems to think that playing with passion is the key to success. Well Mourinho showed this week that you have to know your tactics and be able to make bold decisions when things are not working. Not saying TS will not learn these things but I personally do not want to wait around to see if he does and I do not want to be paying another £900 in the process on the off chance that he "may" become a great manager.

I think that is an interpretation of what TS seems to think.

The fact he wants his players to play with passion and commitment does not imply that he thinks passion and commitment is all that is needed, any more than a statement asserting that midfielders must do more than simply destroy implies that he does not want his midfielders defending. I mean, if Sandro developed Tom Carroll's passing ability, you'd take that, wouldn't you?.

I think Mourinho is of the same mind as TS. Look at Mata: good player but does not work hard enough. Lukaku: good player, but does not work hard enough.

Talking of Mourinho, his bold tactical decisions this week, so far as I could see, involved the standard "time is running out and we are losing so throw another forward on and lump it into the box" tactic. He went all Allardyce on us.

His other masterplan was to remind the forwards that the opponents now need to score, so perhaps a bit of defending is in order.

OK, I exaggerate for comic effect, and I hope that this reply has not come across as overly combative or at all sarcastic. If it has, I'll blame the press ...
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

3. Are we an exciting side?

It's a work in progress. More exciting than under AVB? I can't believe even Sherwood's harshest critics would deny we're more attacking and are creating more chances.

Not the good kind of exciting. It's been torture to watch at times. We've looked an absolute shambles in most games under Sherwood. I've felt apathetic about Spurs at times in the past, but never to the level it's been recently. Liverpool match I stopped watching after Kaboul's OG and even the NLD only watched the first half.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, but we aren't the press.

True, I actually agree with you on what AVB said to Ashton. I thought it was refreshing to see a manager call him out on it rather than wheel out the usual 'I don't read the papers' stuff. What Ashton done was out of order at the time.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Is there a thread that could be made on the managerial subject, that could be restricted to developments on either Sherwood's position, or on a replacement coming in. Ie rumours from the press, word on the street.. facts, but without all of the guff, opinion, point scoring etc. I'm sure it's not just me that would want it. By all means keep the original thread going for those who want to debate it, but each time I see new posts, I stupidly believe there may be new info. (;
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Without the guff, opinion and point scoring, there is hardly any reason for a forum
 
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