Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Really? 5 wins in 11 games is relegation form?

It's possibly not relegation form but it's lower than mid-table that's for sure.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's possibly not relegation form but it's lower than mid-table that's for sure.

It's picking out a team at a very specific point in the season in a very specific defined run of games going through a bit of a rough patch. To win almost half of the games suggests it really wasn't that bad. I'm pretty sure our March has seen relegation form.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And to the answer the other point that AVB also couldn't compete with the big teams, it's like people are ignoring last season, where we beat United, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, and drew with Chelsea. Those wins were not just because we 'gave the ball to Bale' but because we were well drilled, motivated and executed a plan.

What's the difference this season? A massive core of the squad has been sold and replaced with foreigners. It's not like AVB will have forgotten how to prepare against the big teams, he simply had different players that needed moulding. I would even say the squad this year is better than last year, and will probably show it next season, but it will take time for them to get used to this league, the club and their team-mates.

If that is the case then:

Make fewer changes,
Don't purchase all of them from overseas
Introduce the new players more gradually
Don't ostracise your best centre forward (at least not until your shiny new one from Spain has settled in and proven himself).
Don't loan out your best left back (or at least your least sh!t one)
Don't sell a young, promising, physical, English centre half who knows what the premiership is all about to replace him with an inexperienced, young, ball playing Romanian - especially when you know that one of your senior centre halves has a terrible injury record and another of your first choice centre halves will have to move to left back if the only left back at the club gets injured.

The only player that AVB had to lose from last season was Bale. Lamela was signed as a right sided forward who liked to cut inside on his left foot (rather like the way Bale was playing last season). Therefore why not play last season's team minus Bale but plus Lamela?.... Allows the team to play with the same shape and in exactly the same way while bedding in only one player with the other players gradually introduced via the Europa League, Carling Cup and substitute appearances.

My thoughts on the whole Sherwood/AVB affair were that AVB got the sack because under his stewardship we were gradually getting more and more predictable with deteriorating results, along with the standard of the football becoming more and more tedious. I remember in one game saying to the ST holder next to me "I don't think I can remember us being this boring since Santini was here". Sherwood then came in and improved things a little, but ultimately hasn't improved things enough to end up being anything more than what he was always intended to be - a stop gap until the end of the season when an interesting manager merry go round is likely after the World Cup is complete.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If that is the case then:

Make fewer changes, - Agreed.
Don't purchase all of them from overseas - Agreed.
Introduce the new players more gradually - Agreed.
Don't ostracise your best centre forward (at least not until your shiny new one from Spain has settled in and proven himself) - if Ade is disrespecting his authority, he is within his rights to cast him away. Plus he was awful last year, let's not pretend everyone was clamoring for him to play.
Don't loan out your best left back (or at least your least sh!t one) - Didn't seem like he was the most supportive of AVB once he had gone, I would suggest like Ade he wasn't the most suited to a 'team first' philosophy and to cutting down his individual tendencies to play in a more structured way.
Don't sell a young, promising, physical, English centre half who knows what the premiership is all about to replace him with an inexperienced, young, ball playing Romanian - especially when you know that one of your senior centre halves has a terrible injury record and another of your first choice centre halves will have to move to left back if the only left back at the club gets injured. - I don't think this has been a problem at all.

The only player that AVB had to lose from last season was Bale. Lamela was signed as a right sided forward who liked to cut inside on his left foot (rather like the way Bale was playing last season). Therefore why not play last season's team minus Bale but plus Lamela?.... Allows the team to play with the same shape and in exactly the same way while bedding in only one player with the other players gradually introduced via the Europa League, Carling Cup and substitute appearances. - That's what he was doing. Siggy played on the left, Townsend on the right, Holtby had his run in the no10 position with everyone moaning that he dropped Eriksen, he gave Defoe his shot against West Ham and he blew it.

My thoughts on the whole Sherwood/AVB affair were that AVB got the sack because under his stewardship we were gradually getting more and more predictable with deteriorating results, along with the standard of the football becoming more and more tedious. I remember in one game saying to the ST holder next to me "I don't think I can remember us being this boring since Santini was here". Sherwood then came in and improved things a little, but ultimately hasn't improved things enough to end up being anything more than what he was always intended to be - a stop gap until the end of the season when an interesting manager merry go round is likely after the World Cup is complete.

bop

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

OMT last night: Between 7pm to 8pm last night there were a dozen posters abusing the fukk out of Sherwood for his team selection and formation pre-match. Only ONE of those posters - DeanoAustin - has had the grace and courtesy to come back after the match and admit they got it wrong. Plenty of posters expressing pleasure at the result post match, but none of them so much as mentioning Sherwood or admitting they got it so wrong before KO.

Ratings Thread: It is customary to rate the coach in these threads. At time of writing, not one of the reviews even mentions Sherwood's name.

.........


The point here isn't whether people got it right or wrong. The point is about bad faith. A lot of people can no longer claim to be calling what they see fairly, because when they had the chance to do so after the Sunderland game, they instead ran away from their dire predictions.

In fairness some people aren't pretending to be calling it objectively - Scara and GB are at least open about their mindless, cultish hatred for the guy come what may - but some of you are trying to pretend you're calling it objectively when in fact you are doing no such thing. If you were, there wouldn't be such deafening silence last night and today about Sherwood's performance last night.

Look, I'm happy we won, but I'm not sure anyone could call that a 'Tim Sherwood Masterclass' of genius. Sunderland were absolutely terrible, easily the most clueless side I've seen for a long time, and the space they afforded us, particularly in the second-half, was madness. I felt sorry for Soldado as he would've had four last night. Eriksen and Ade swapped off because that's what they do, so really, the only selection you want Timbo showered with praise for is Chadli and Paulinho for Bentaleb and Sandro. It worked last night, in the end, yes. Well done Timbo. But if he tries it against a team with an ounce more bite, we will get c unted mate. Aside from the fact, what I heard about the shennanigans yesterday have sealed it for me. I do not want him here. He has pulled the dirty route again. Bye bye.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's picking out a team at a very specific point in the season in a very specific defined run of games going through a bit of a rough patch. To win almost half of the games suggests it really wasn't that bad. I'm pretty sure our March has seen relegation form.

True but one gets nearly universally hammered for those results and is regarded as sure for the sack in May and the other gets 'it's rough patch, a tough run of games... it wasn't so bad'. See the point? Maybe you're not included in this but plenty are guilty of it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

True but one gets nearly universally hammered for those results and is regarded as sure for the sack in May and the other gets 'it's rough patch, a tough run of games... it wasn't so bad'. See the point? Maybe you're not included in this but plenty are guilty of it.

That's the rod TS made for his own back though, always comes back to this. He will have been somewhat vocal as a different voice to AVB (I cannot prove this, but I think it's pretty clear, and there's a reason Levy thought he would be different enough and could affect the apparent required change) and so he got the job. But he gets that job as a guy with no experience and no track record. If he performs averagely, he's given the club no reason to think he should be here any longer. If he does excellently, he might have a shot. But he hasn't.

At the very least the previous incumbent was an actual manager. He had some sort of track record that suggests he may have been able to do something with us. Sherwood made the rod in that if he didn't do excellently, he gets judged harshly. That's what he gets for coming into a situation which wasn't actually that bad, thinking he is the guy that can make it so much better. When there wasn't so much room for improvement as he thought there was, he gave himself a very difficult job to do.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Don't sell a young, promising, physical, English centre half who knows what the premiership is all about to replace him with an inexperienced, young, ball playing Romanian - especially when you know that one of your senior centre halves has a terrible injury record and another of your first choice centre halves will have to move to left back if the only left back at the club gets injured. - I don't think this has been a problem at all.

You don't think being forced to play Vertonghen at left back (our best centre half last season and indeed in most people's PL team of the season) was a problem?

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's the rod TS made for his own back though, always comes back to this. He will have been somewhat vocal as a different voice to AVB (I cannot prove this, but I think it's pretty clear, and there's a reason Levy thought he would be different enough and could affect the apparent required change) and so he got the job. But he gets that job as a guy with no experience and no track record. If he performs averagely, he's given the club no reason to think he should be here any longer. If he does excellently, he might have a shot. But he hasn't.

At the very least the previous incumbent was an actual manager. He had some sort of track record that suggests he may have been able to do something with us. Sherwood made the rod in that if he didn't do excellently, he gets judged harshly. That's what he gets for coming into a situation which wasn't actually that bad, thinking he is the guy that can make it so much better. When there wasn't so much room for improvement as he thought there was, he gave himself a very difficult job to do.

Bit harsh with the 'actual manager stuff'. AVB had about 18 months experience in charge of clubs anyway comparable to Tottenham. And crucially 6 months of those were a car crash in England. Sherwood with a decent if unexceptional 6 months in the premier league, and 2 years in charge of our under 21s, is probably as a good a candidate now as AVB was in 2012! The rest is fair enough but I'm less talking about Sherwood himself and more the blatant double standards of some of our support.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You don't think being forced to play Vertonghen at left back (our best centre half last season and indeed in most people's PL team of the season) was a problem?

No I don't think selling Caulker and replacing him with Vlad was a problem.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Bit harsh with the 'actual manager stuff'. AVB had about 18 months experience in charge of clubs anyway comparable to Tottenham. And crucially 6 months of those were a car crash in England. Sherwood with a decent if unexceptional 6 months in the premier league, and 2 years in charge of our under 21s, is probably as a good a candidate now as AVB was in 2012! The rest is fair enough but I'm less talking about Sherwood himself and more the blatant double standards of some of our support.

In 2012 AVB had won the Europa League and guided his team to an undefeated season domestically in the league and cup.

I only say actual manager because TS neither had the qualifications or the experience. He was just a guy that offers his opinions in transfer meetings and sorts out loans for the kids (channeling my inner GB here).

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

not a managerial win yesterday. Eriksen was simply nuts last night. What an effort! The two strikers were also good against a very bad defence. Also, Sunderland´s midfield was incredibly bad last night. Our CB´s gained some confidence after our 2nd goal and we seemed to be ok. The thing that worried me was how abysmal Paulinho, Chadli and Lennon were.

I thought Chadli was quite good. It's a failing of our team in general to take too many touches but Chadli did well in that regards. He kept the ball moving well and released it at the right times. 7/10 for me.

Paulinho was ok too. Lennon was hit and miss, mostly miss but had a few highlights.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

given enough time for what? (going by the headline of the vid)

it's always been a temp job for him - nothing he has done since has changed that

- do you think a club of our stature should be giving the managers/head coach role to someone with no experience?

- why shouldn't we follow Chelsea's lead? - doesn't seem to have done them any harm...

Because Chelsea can throw endless amounts of money at problems whereas as we do everything possible to save that extra £2.50 on deadline day. Trying to do what Chelsea do but on the cheap is not the way forward.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

maybe im wrong but i have the impression that you was in favor of AVB being sacked/outed at the time - are you now saying Levy was wrong in this instance and should have stuck with him? merry go round and all that ...

There's no point sticking with someone just for the sake of it - they have to show they have what it takes. I personally thought AVB should have been afforded more time to show one way or the other whether he was the right man for the job, others disagree...Sherwood for me was given a temp role, handed an 18 month contract as a sweetener - the plan was always to get a new man in the summer so all this talk about Sherwood not being given enough time is moot - as he was never in a position to take the job on long term.

Let me be clear, I was in favour of AVB getting canned as we were only getting worse under him. Sherwood has done ok so far, not bad but not spectacular. I'm just keen to dampen the likes of Gutterboy and Scara's expectations that some big name foreign manager will rock up and take us to the promise land, I mean how many times do we really need to go down that route and see us fall flat on our arses before we realise it's not always the answer?

The real problem is Levy, no longer can anyone possibly say with a straight face that he's the best chairman in the league. No doubt Brendan Rodgers would have got booted out if he had been at Spurs last season and had a similar first season to the one he had at Liverpool.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Because Chelsea can throw endless amounts of money at problems whereas as we do everything possible to save that extra £2.50 on deadline day. Trying to do what Chelsea do but on the cheap is not the way forward.

Fair point

Any response to post #7754?

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So you think Daws and Kaboul are top 4 players? And you don't think some of the players brought in have been average? And you disagree with those who feel Bale could have been a game changer at times this season (as he was last)...and could have given us those 5-6 more points you talk about? In short, you feel we currently have a top 4 team, and are a top 4 team this season?

Hypothetical question: If LVG somehow had this team and these players and took over at the start of the season, or mid-season, and we didn't make top 4, would you be screaming for his head? Your expectations of him would surely be a lot higher than of Sherwood, right? So why are we only ever talking about 4th place with each?

In other words, trying to understand how the expectation for Sherwood is 4th place - when he has no managerial experience and he inherited the squad mid season...and yet the expectation with the mighty LVG would also be 4th with a squad of players he would get to assemble over the summer?

I'm pretty sure if LVG comes, and somehow retains Daws and Kaboul and they play, there will be some saying after a defeat that they aren't top 4 players. In fact, some say it now.

Dawson has played in a side that has competed for, been in a top 4 side and played in a CL QF, so don't know what qualifies a player as a "top 4" more than that. If your question is do I think Walker - Kaboul - Vert - +new LB w/Dawson +Vlad on bench is good enough for Spurs to make top 4 = answer is yes, especially if that line is in front Lloris and behind Sandro

As I mentioned in my previous post, we have a LB problem, issue with midfield balance, injuries and more importantly no system/team ethos at all. Are we capable of being a top 4 side = look at the table, despite completely not showing against the big team, stumbling through the season, never really playing well, no set first 11, we are still 2 wins from top 4.

So .. are we capable even now (minus Bale) of being a top 4 side = yes
Should the expectation be that we must get top 4 = question for Levy, not me (personally I think its not that black & white)

To me Sherwood is not a failure because we didn't get 4th, it's because he had no right to have the job, therefore the only way he could reasonably expect the club to let him keep the job beyond summer and invest in players/staff to back him is if he did something extraordinary in the time window he had.

And no matter what stats anyone tries to manipulate to show it, the real truth is, he hasn't done anything extraordinary, he's done an ok job with a lot of the same failing of his predecessor evident, and no real vision of something better to come.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's the rod TS made for his own back though, always comes back to this. He will have been somewhat vocal as a different voice to AVB (I cannot prove this, but I think it's pretty clear, and there's a reason Levy thought he would be different enough and could affect the apparent required change) and so he got the job. But he gets that job as a guy with no experience and no track record. If he performs averagely, he's given the club no reason to think he should be here any longer. If he does excellently, he might have a shot. But he hasn't.

Sherwood got the job because the people that we wanted to appoint were not available until the end of the season. I am yet to see a single account which has suggested Levy and Baldini decided to bin AVB and replace him with Sherwood. We also need to remember that we ended up in this situation because AVB had fallen out with people left, right and centre and (supposedly) wanted out. I am sure that if AVB's relationships with key players behind the scenes had been better, there would have been more willingness to ride through the rough patch.

 

[sc25]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The real truth is, Sherwood hasn't done anything extraordinary.

I agree. Then again, I wasn't expecting him to.

Just so I'm clear...the expectations of LVG should/will be far greater than that of Sherwood, right?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm just keen to dampen the likes of Gutterboy and Scara's expectations that some big name foreign manager will rock up and take us to the promise land, I mean how many times do we really need to go down that route and see us fall flat on our arses before we realise it's not always the answer?

Just once IMO.

I'm not sure why you insist on lumping LVG in with previous managers just because he's foreign - that's like lumping Ferguson in with Alan Ball on the basis that they're both British.

We have never to my knowledge even seriously considered (let alone had a chance of getting) a manager of this calibre. This isn't trying the same thing again, this is trying something entirely new. We've not had a coach of even near this calibre since the goonersaurus.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree. Then again, I wasn't expecting him to.

Just so I'm clear...the expectations of LVG should/will be far greater than that of Sherwood, right?

The expectation of a mangy dog found licking its own balls out the back of the Paxton would be higher than that of Timmeh.