Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well comparing with the last decade... I would guess Sherwood would be miles clear on that front with AVB/Jol pretty even and Redknapp last. But with very different circumstances in all cases. Redknapp had by far the toughest circumstance, for example. Don't think many would argue with that. Which is why points per game over very different eras doesn't tell us very much.

yeah 2pts from 8 was a tough situation to take on, but he had a good group of players who were under-performing and he was able to add to the squad in the Jan window. We had an abnormally poor start under ramos that season, of course moral was low, but generally whenever a new manager takes charge its because the team has been performing badly and the new guy has a chance to benefit from the simple change of manager

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think the statement about a review in the summer is reasonable. Sherwood hasn't shown anything exceptional which would allow for an automatic one year extension. Only top 4 or perhaps a Uefa Cup win would see have seen that happen and the latter boat is all but sailed. I'd go further and make the position vacant and ask Sherwood to re-apply for his job. This would then allow other candidates to openly come forward without burning our bridges with the current manager. This could help avoid the shambles of 2012 where we get rid of our twice top 4, Champions League Quarter Finalist incumbent manager for some loser who had Chelsea in 6th and watched them go on and win the CL after he left. And even then, the other candidates were hardly outstanding compared to who we had (with the exception of Martinez - who might genuinely have been able to take us on from Redknapp). We would hope LVG is firmly interested but what if he isn't? I don't want to end up with another over hyped type like Pochettino, who has a patchy record at best. If we can't get LVG then better then devil you know until someone outstanding becomes available.

I think you are underestimating the groundwork that had gone into the AVB appointment. Reportedly we were first interested in him at Porto and had remained in contact from then on (though the same was apparently the case with Mourinho in and since 2003/4). Apparently we are very good at groundwork.

The only unplanned factor in the transition to AVB was Redknapp not getting the England job and ballsing up CL qualification.

If LVG isn't available then there's only about three other managers I would possibly prefer Timmeh over - Allardyce, Pardew and Pullis. It's anyone but… for me.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Top 4 I mean. We have been good against the lesser teams bar West Ham and a few blips like Norwich. But we spanked Saudi Sportswashing Machine away which we never do.

I just think giving him a chance rather than giving a manager the usual half a season will work.

I just thought the idea of 'they just outplayed us, may as well give the guy a chance' was a bit backwards. Sherwood could have had an impact on our performances against the top 4.

I was impressed with how we were tactically against Old Trafford so I thought he had something there.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Hahaha .. so funny, you prove my point

One set of stats that you want to use because it's aligned with your point is valid, but another isn't? put all and show ALL the games regardless of opponents.

Again, people want to pretend that all the players we bought are **** and AVB had exactly the same side, yet TS has had Ade (good call by him) and an obviously improved Eriksen.

The only thing you can use to truly measure TS is what you see with your own eyes, and what I see is a team that is not a sum of its parts, tactically naïve, generally unmotivated and struggles through almost every game.

But it isn't aligned with my point of view. I've never pretended I think points per game is some sort of be all and end all. And I said as much when AVB went and was being defended on the basis of having the best points per game of any premiership era manager. Neither do I think Sherwood has done anything exceptional or should necessarily continue in the job. My position from early on has been: 4th = one year extension. Within 6 points of 4th means top 4 results over 22 games = should be asked to re-apply for his job. Any less than this = thanks Tim but the door is over there. No chance of the first of these but still a chance of the other two. This is hardly a slavish pro-Sherwood position. I'd say it is fairly consistent. I too was happy enough with AVBs first season. There was nothing exceptional but nothing worthy of the sack. The same is actually true of Sherwood. I'm only more open to it because of the chance of LVG.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just thought the idea of 'they just outplayed us, may as well give the guy a chance' was a bit backwards. Sherwood could have had an impact on our performances against the top 4.

I was impressed with how we were tactically against Old Trafford so I thought he had something there.

Thing is he is learning and he will have learned from the spankings and losses to the top 4. Remember the Chelsea game was individual mistakes so hardly his fault and we were in the game up until Verts and Walker etc. Liverpool completely bossed us away, City at home we could have got something had that offside goal been given but I doubt it. Arsenal at home we should have come away with something.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Thing is he is learning and he will have learned from the spankings and losses to the top 4. Remember the Chelsea game was individual mistakes so hardly his fault and we were in the game up until Verts and Walker etc. Liverpool completely bossed us away, City at home we could have got something had that offside goal been given but I doubt it. Arsenal at home we should have come away with something.

Should we be employing someone that is learning though?

If he was like...so new that his new ideas put him well ahead of the pack in terms of management. If his innovations gave him a unique advantage, I'd be all for giving him a chance. And I thought maybe that's what he was. But it seems like he isn't that, like he's basically trying to learn how to be Harry Redknapp. We don't need that.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Fantastic post. Good points, well made.

I was critical of TS ONLY for the selection of Lennoninho instead of Townsend. Otherwise, I thought that the selection was entirely justifiable.

To me, given the players at his disposal, he would have liked to have settled on 442 with two strikers, and the wonky with Eriksen floating in from the left and one player ( unfortunately by default Lennon) as Townsend hasn't shown any recent form either to be fair and Lamela is injured.

I think that is his preferred shape and it brought us early success in his reign. I think we will see this till the end of the season. Not at all bad a shout for our remaining games IMO .

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think you are underestimating the groundwork that had gone into the AVB appointment. Reportedly we were first interested in him at Porto and had remained in contact from then on (though the same was apparently the case with Mourinho in and since 2003/4). Apparently we are very good at groundwork.

That would make the shambles an even bigger shambles. The fact that we watched the whole car crash at Chelsea and still thought it was a good idea. **** me, he had the Champions League winners, with a sugar daddy billionaire owner... in 6th place!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That would make the shambles an even bigger shambles. The fact that we watched the whole car crash at Chelsea and still thought it was a good idea. **** me, he had the Champions League winners, with a sugar daddy billionaire owner... in 6th place!

They hardly played like CL winners when they won it though did they? More like the Crystal Palace of Europe.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Fantastic post. Good points, well made.

I was critical of TS ONLY for the selection of Lennoninho instead of Townsend. Otherwise, I thought that the selection was entirely justifiable.

To me, given the players at his disposal, he would have liked to have settled on 442 with two strikers, and the wonky with Eriksen floating in from the left and one player ( unfortunately by default Lennon) as Townsend hasn't shown any recent form either to be fair and Lamela is injured.

I think that is his preferred shape and it brought us early success in his reign. I think we will see this till the end of the season. Not at all bad a shout for our remaining games IMO .

I agree. This is where a lot of his problems have stemmed from. Why switch from it? It wasn't ideal but it was horse for the courses with the players we had available. It started against Emirates Marketing Project where he seemed to lose faith in two up front. And then we regressed to the point where we were back to a lost Soldado up front on his own at Liverpool last week. That gave a scary vision of what could have been had we not sacked AVB. Quite probably none of these decent, if unexceptional, results against Southampton, United, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, the same hammerings against the top 4 and the 'occasional' West Ham humbling becoming more frequent. That would suggest we could have been sucked into the relegation dogfight. Certainly 15 points in 11 games was nigh on relegation form.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree. This is where a lot of his problems have stemmed from. Why switch from it? It wasn't ideal but it was horse for the courses with the players we had available. It started against Emirates Marketing Project where he seemed to lose faith in two up front. And then we regressed to the point where we were back to a lost Soldado up front on his own at Liverpool last week. That gave a scary vision of what could have been had we not sacked AVB. Quite probably none of these decent, if unexceptional, results against Southampton, United, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, the same hammerings against the top 4 and the 'occasional' West Ham humbling becoming more frequent. That would suggest we could have been sucked into the relegation dogfight. Certainly 15 points in 11 games was nigh on relegation form.

Really? 5 wins in 11 games is relegation form?

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Really? 5 wins in 11 games is relegation form?

4 wins. In the league. Just under a point a game quite possibly sends you down this year. It would have done last year. So he was 5 points off relegation form in just under 3 months of football? With our squad? Scary! And it was getting worse....

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

45 points from 33 games (15/11 x 3) would actually have you 10th this season, poor but not quite relegation form

 

[sc25]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

With the players we currently have, their ages, PL experience, etc, does anyone here really expect us to be top 4 this season? As it is, we are in with a shout, but surely if we finish top 6 that is more indicative of the squad and manager we currently have? If we can get LVG then maybe we should, but not sure that means Sherwood - who took over mid-stream and inherited all these players - has failed this year if we don't get top 4.

 

[AdamB]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I still think we should give Sherwood a go. He is learning but we arent in a bad position. Everyone else has just outplayed us, yes we got spanked but LVG might not be what everyone thinks he will be.

Just need to give someone time FFS and not sack after a 4 or 5 bad games.

Plus he hasnt had his own signings and we are in transition, do we really want to go through that again?

Crazy. If LVG would join us then we have the option of:
- keep a work-experience kid (in management terms) who's never dnoe the job before OR
- hiring one of the best in the business who's acheived success across multiple countries AND has a track record of developing younger players

It really is a no-brainer

 

[clownfoot]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

With the players we currently have, their ages, PL experience, etc, does anyone here really expect us to be top 4 this season? As it is, we are in with a shout, but surely if we finish top 6 that is more indicative of the squad and manager we currently have? If we can get LVG then maybe we should, but not sure that means Sherwood - who took over mid-stream and inherited all these players - has failed this year if we don't get top 4.

I won't look back on this period in our history and blame Sherwood for any shortcomings or failures. Instead Levy has failed by putting a man in charge who was nowhere near adequate enough for the appointment. In ten years he will be a zero answer on Pointless for 'Spurs managers in the Premiership', nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

With the players we currently have, their ages, PL experience, etc, does anyone here really expect us to be top 4 this season? As it is, we are in with a shout, but surely if we finish top 6 that is more indicative of the squad and manager we currently have? If we can get LVG then maybe we should, but not sure that means Sherwood - who took over mid-stream and inherited all these players - has failed this year if we don't get top 4.

Given the way the league has panned out, I think a better manager from day one would have us as the best of the flat track bullies minimum, ie 4th place. I agree it isn't that Sherwood has failed as such, it is that he hasn't shown anything exceptional. I haven't attacked him on experience as the very best have often come into the biggest jobs and just hit the ground running: Mourinho, Guardiola? It is hugely overrated. But Sherwood has not really done that, has he? He's marginally improved results mainly it seems because he managed to alienate the squad a bit less than the last guy. I think he's done just about enough to make himself a candidate for the job but not a very strong one.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

With the players we currently have, their ages, PL experience, etc, does anyone here really expect us to be top 4 this season? As it is, we are in with a shout, but surely if we finish top 6 that is more indicative of the squad and manager we currently have? If we can get LVG then maybe we should, but not sure that means Sherwood - who took over mid-stream and inherited all these players - has failed this year if we don't get top 4.

People are overplaying the squad issue (and loss of Bale).

Lloris, Walker, Vert, Dawson, Lennon, Sandro, Ade have all been part of a team that has challenged for top 4
We have actually had more of Kaboul this season, +Vlad
Vlad, Chadli, Eriksen have all contributed and are settling in with Eriksen looking like an extremely good buy
Soldado is not quite the disaster people are making him out to be.
Bentaleb has been a nice discovery.

We really have had four team issues

- LB position (TS has to shoulder some of the blame for not insisting on a purchase here in January)
- Midfield balance, we need another ball player alongside Eriksen
- Injuries (Vert, Vlad, Sandro, Ade, Walker have hurt us badly)
- We don't play as a team


Is it Sherwood's failure, I don't think so, lot more in it than that.

Has he done enough to warrant another full season +players bought, I don't think so either.

You look at the above and it's all fine margins, if AVB had been smart enough to get Ade to play for him, if injuries had given us Walker, Vert, Kaboul and Ade for all games, if we had bought a LB in January, if either AVB or TS could get the team to gel more ... any 2 of those could have given us 5-6 more points, which would be in for 4th ...

 

[sc25]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

People are overplaying the squad issue (and loss of Bale).

So you think Daws and Kaboul are top 4 players? And you don't think some of the players brought in have been average? And you disagree with those who feel Bale could have been a game changer at times this season (as he was last)...and could have given us those 5-6 more points you talk about? In short, you feel we currently have a top 4 team, and are a top 4 team this season?

Hypothetical question: If LVG somehow had this team and these players and took over at the start of the season, or mid-season, and we didn't make top 4, would you be screaming for his head? Your expectations of him would surely be a lot higher than of Sherwood, right? So why are we only ever talking about 4th place with each?

In other words, trying to understand how the expectation for Sherwood is 4th place - when he has no managerial experience and he inherited the squad mid season...and yet the expectation with the mighty LVG would also be 4th with a squad of players he would get to assemble over the summer?

I'm pretty sure if LVG comes, and somehow retains Daws and Kaboul and they play, there will be some saying after a defeat that they aren't top 4 players. In fact, some say it now.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I won't look back on this period in our history and blame Sherwood for any shortcomings or failures. Instead Levy has failed by putting a man in charge who was nowhere near adequate enough for the appointment. In ten years he will be a zero answer on Pointless for 'Spurs managers in the Premiership', nothing more, nothing less.

That'll surely be Jacques Santini not AVB! lol