The midweek/weekend games thread

[Roy1983]

That's ITK for you

 

[ArcspacE]

Actually, I hope it is else for I couldn't bear those smug lotto winning cnuts parading around with the 'highest price paid for a piece of tin' in the history of modern football

 

[braineclipse]

Let me give you another example, braineclipse - Utd

Found out numerous times in Europe yet they seem to have a stronghold in the PL year after year. Because of their experience, history, manager, etc. We have a better midfield than them. Chelsea have a better midfield than them. Arse on a good day can give them a push too. But at the business end, more often than not they'll come on tops because of that very psychological advantage of superiority, never giving, up, 20 titles, media banging on for decades, etc. They beat us with their youth squad back in August, ffs. But they're Man Utd so it's ok. It's allowed. The balance had been lept in tact. Year after year after year. And that is exactly what is taking place right now albeit on a global (European) scale

I think you overestimate the role of the media in this. At least I don't put it nearly that highly.

United have a belief, a confidence about them that surely has come from winning a lot. But I don't think they have it because of the media. They never give up, they always believe, they concentrate and rarely make silly mistakes. It's all part of being an excellent footballer. For all our abilities we still lack that mental aspect of it. We do fall asleep, we lose our concentration, we make silly mistakes. The players do that, the manager can work on that, but I don't think the media influences that much at all.

I found it interesting to listen to Gary Neville when he was commentating Arsenal-Milan, he seemed to fully believe already at 2-0 that as long as Arsenal kept a clean sheet they would score enough to go through. There seemed to be no doubt in his mind, although that could be partly him wanting to be a positive commentator from an English point of view, I think it was a real belief he had. One he probably had throughout his United career. I think we could see that when we faced United now as well. The belief their defensive players had, that as long as they kept concentrating and working hard to not concede their attacking players or a set play would get them the win. It's a mentality that has come from winning year in and year out. But I also think it's a mentality that has come from a manager who actively instills that, and many other positive mental traits, into his players.

Chelsea got a lot of media plaudits, especially when they had Mourinho, as did Arsenal during their best years. Yet both clubs have (at least to some extent) faded. That mentality isn't there any more. What happened? Did the media just not give them the same kind of praise that United got? Or did United have a manager that was just better at instilling the right attitude into his squad that Chelsea post Mourinho and Arsenal under Wenger maybe didn't have? An ability that the Barcelona system and Guardiola, at least to me, seemingly has.

 

[ArcspacE]

In my part of the world - if you stop 20 random humans on the street and ask them to name one football club in the world - I can guarantee you 15-17 of those would name Utd while the other most likely go for Barcelona

Now most of those folk would most likely have very limited knowledge of trophy counts, etc - but that is exactly what is being reported in the news, TV, etc. every day. Only Barca's game was mentioned on my radio this morning while driving. Nothing about Apoel. And of course a reminder was given of Utd's tie with Athetlic Bilabo later tonight. Nothing about Atletico Madrid or Sporting for example, etc.

Arsenal simply lost a lot of quality players which they never replaced.

 

[braineclipse]

Messi has been decent for Argentina over the last 5-6 years. Very good on occasions. Problem is - he's taken out of the protective bubble of a system perfected around him (fair dos) and placed in a team which isn't getting head from nearly every single media source in the world proclaiming their world dominance and actually had to face teams which are A) not scared of you B) not in awe of you C) looking to win the game, not keep the scoreline respectable.

Spain's system (naturally) has evolved around their midfield and become a continuation of that. And although successful over the last 4 years have been imho rather dull and nowhere near Barcelona's sheer destructions force.

Messi is 24, during the last World Cup he was 22 or 23, still just a kid. At 24 he's played 67 games for Argentina, scoring 22 goals. Not exceptional, but not terrible either. By comparison Christiano Ronaldo has 32 in 88 at 27 years old and Rooney has 28 in 73 at 26.

Even, for the sake of argument, accepting that Messi has been only decent for Argentina. I don't see any causal link between the media and him performing exceptionally for Barca. Can't it just be that Barca are very good at getting the best out of their star players?

And again, what players other than Messi aren't performing at international level or in other clubs/leagues? What about the example of Yaya Toure who went from being good at Barca, to one of the best players in the PL? How about Eto'o? Top class in Barca, still top class for Inter and also exceptional at international level. If Barca are mostly hype shouldn't the players they sell fail in other clubs/leagues?

 

[braineclipse]

In my part of the world - if you stop 20 random humans on the street and ask them to name one football club in the world - I can guarantee you 15-17 of those would name Utd while the other most likely go for Barcelona

Now most of those folk would most likely have very limited knowledge of trophy counts, etc - but that is exactly what is being reported in the news, TV, etc. every day. Only Barca's game was mentioned on my radio this morning while driving. Nothing about Apoel. And of course a reminder was given of Utd's tie with Athetlic Bilabo later tonight. Nothing about Atletico Madrid or Sporting for example, etc.

Arsenal simply lost a lot of quality players which they never replaced.

Arsenal lost a lot of quality players, but United also lost Ronaldo, and according to you both we and Chelsa have better midfields than them these days. How did they keep going at the top? Just a coincidence? I don't think so. Their players have the right attitude because they have that attitude instilled into them. Because of that they continue being successful despite losing several key players over the years and they manage to turn around new generations almost without missing a step. Because of that they keep winning and because of that they get he attention and praise from the media. Not the other way around.

 

[ArcspacE]

My comment was exclusive to Messi as you might have picked up by now - r.e. his prolific record at scoring for fun in a team built around him (naturally) vs playing in a team full of superstars just as prominent as his Barca team mates (if not even better in some areas) yet the system fails to bring out the best in him

 

[ArcspacE]

Because of that they keep winning and because of that they get he attention and praise from the media. Not the other way around.

In your opinion

If you genuinely believe the biased media propaganda has zero effect on their opponents and subsequent games - let's rather end this discussion now as it's going around in circles

 

[braineclipse]

In your opinion

If you genuinely believe the biased media propaganda has zero effect on their opponents and subsequent games - let's rather end this discussion now as it's going around in circles

Of course it's my opinion.

I didn't say zero, but I did say I think you overestimate how much of an effect the media has. And I have tried to provide evidence for that.

My comment was exclusive to Messi as you might have picked up by now - r.e. his prolific record at scoring for fun in a team built around him (naturally) vs playing in a team full of superstars just as prominent as his Barca team mates (if not even better in some areas) yet the system fails to bring out the best in him

So on this part of the evidence I think you have to concede the point. One player under performing out of what, probably 15+ internationals and several players moving to other leagues and doing brilliantly. And that one player is still young, still a kid at the last international tournament he was in, and has done as well goalscoring wise as C. Ronaldo and Rooney at international level. I see no reason to think, based on internationals and players moving to other leagues that the Barca players are any worse than I previously thought.

 

[ArcspacE]

Of course it's my opinion.

I didn't say zero, but I did say I think you overestimate how much of an effect the media has. And I have tried to provide evidence for that.

What evidence did you provide?

 

[ArcspacE]

So on this part of the evidence I think you have to concede the point. One player under performing out of what, probably 15+ internationals and several players moving to other leagues and doing brilliantly. And that one player is still young, still a kid at the last international tournament he was in, and has done as well goalscoring wise as C. Ronaldo and Rooney at international level. I see no reason to think, based on internationals and players moving to other leagues that the Barca players are any worse than I previously thought.

The Barca midfielders play in the same system when on internatinal duty with most of their team mates. Messi plays with different players within different tactical dynamics in a team which is percieved differently. He's still the same player, right - so why hasn't he produced the spectacular form from his club exploits? Nothing to do with his ability but do a large degree context, imv

 

[braineclipse]

What evidence did you provide?

Yaya Toure going from being good at Barca to brilliant in the PL. Samuel Eto'o keeping a similar performance level in Italy as for Barca. Most of their internationals doing as well for their countries as they do for Barca.

The comparison to United came up, and I thought it was a good one. They have managed to keep instilling the right attitude, other haven't. Despite many clubs getting a lot of media praise. Indicating that there is something different causing this.

Oh, and seeing no evidence to the contrary. All I have seen from you are statements that other teams are scared because of some media propaganda machine controlled by someone and that this somehow is the main reason why Barca keep doing well.

 

[ArcspacE]

Yaya Toure going from being good at Barca to brilliant in the PL. Samuel Eto'o keeping a similar performance level in Italy as for Barca. Most of their internationals doing as well for their countries as they do for Barca.

The comparison to United came up, and I thought it was a good one. They have managed to keep instilling the right attitude, other haven't. Despite many clubs getting a lot of media praise. Indicating that there is something different causing this.

Oh, and seeing no evidence to the contrary. All I have seen from you are statements that other teams are scared because of some media propaganda machine controlled by someone and that this somehow is the main reason why Barca keep doing well.

I was referring to evidence for the media comments.

Of course they arent aren't solely responsible for their success nor did I at any point suggest that.

But they are responsible to a large defree, imv and the constant banging on day after day is nauseous, tedious and subconciously affecting both players and fans. Unless of course you're Jose who doen't give a toss about those diving qunts and goes hard back at them - hopefully doing one over sooner rather than later (of course the league being a major achievment)

The media is stronger than you might suspect, I tell thee

 

[braineclipse]

The Barca midfielders play in the same system when on internatinal duty with most of their team mates. Messi plays with different players within different tactical dynamics in a team which is percieved differently. He's still the same player, right - so why hasn't he produced the spectacular form from his club exploits? Nothing to do with his ability but do a large degree context, imv

Even accepting that this is only to do with context. What supports your claim that the main context driving this is the media? Why not the brilliance of the Barca team machine? The tactical abilities of Guardiola? Or the tactical ineptitude of the Argentina managers? Or the inability of the other Argentinian players to provide service to Messi? Or the fact that Messi is still very young and very few players actually deliver on an international stage at that age? Or maybe that Messi plays a different role for Argentina than he does for Barca?

I've put the comparison out there to C. Ronaldo and Rooney? Why aren't they performing as well for their countries? How about Yaya Toure, Eto'o? Not to mention the players Barca have signed. Sanchez looked excellent for Chile, no surprise also good for Barca. Fabregas was one of the best players in the PL, also very good for Barca. David Villa was exceptional for Valencia and Spain before signing for Barca, no shock he's been good for them as well. But still, none of them have been as good as Messi, Xavi and Iniesta? Why not? They should now get the same benefits as the other Barca players. Why aren't they outshining the players that were already there?

 

[mick cooper]

I was referring to evidence for the media comments.

Of course they arent aren't solely responsible for their success nor did I at any point suggest that.

But they are responsible to a large defree, imv and the constant banging on day after day is nauseous, tedious and subconciously affecting both players and fans. Unless of course you're Jose who doen't give a toss about those diving qunts and goes hard back at them - hopefully doing one over sooner rather than later (of course the league being a major achievment)

The media is stronger than you might suspect, I tell thee

only for weak minded people who cannot make judgements of their own, or ignorant people who have insufficient subject knowledge, and simply recreate media opinion as their own

 

[braineclipse]

I was referring to evidence for the media comments.

Of course they arent aren't solely responsible for their success nor did I at any point suggest that.

But they are responsible to a large defree, imv and the constant banging on day after day is nauseous, tedious and subconciously affecting both players and fans. Unless of course you're Jose who doen't give a toss about those diving qunts and goes hard back at them - hopefully doing one over sooner rather than later (of course the league being a major achievment)

The media is stronger than you might suspect, I tell thee

I'm confused about what evidence you're now referring to. I'm sorry.

I didn't claim that you said solely responsibly. I said "main", and that seems to be your opinion.

 

[ArcspacE]

I've put the comparison out there to C. Ronaldo and Rooney? Why aren't they performing as well for their countries? How about Yaya Toure, Eto'o? Not to mention the players Barca have signed. Sanchez looked excellent for Chile, no surprise also good for Barca. Fabregas was one of the best players in the PL, also very good for Barca. David Villa was exceptional for Valencia and Spain before signing for Barca, no shock he's been good for them as well. But still, none of them have been as good as Messi, Xavi and Iniesta? Why not? They should now get the same benefits as the other Barca players. Why aren't they outshining the players that were already there?

I genuinely do not understand your question. Are you asking why those players haven't floped at Barca? They were quality units and thoroughbreds. For every Hleb and Krkic you get a Sanchez and Alcantara (sp). But how is that relevant to our debate? Messi is an exceptinal talent who I cannot see being rivaled at the moment. Naturally their tacitcal movement revolves around him. But these are things we all know

And the reason Ronaldo/Rooney are flattering to decieve could well be similar if not identical pattern

 

[ArcspacE]

I didn't claim that you said solely responsibly. I said "main", and that seems to be your opinion.

I would say up tp 35-40%, imv

 

[Jordinho]

Barcelona play the best football in the world. Fact. toss fest or not you can't argue with facts.

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. There is no definiton of what constitutes the best possible way to play football. We can only go by what we find pleasing to watch individually.

Barcelona being the best team in the world right now, with Real a close second, is probably as close to a fact as you can get.

 

[Mumorn]

I agree.

It depends on what you prefer. If you prefer pure power, attacking football and explosiveness then you'd say Real Madrid play the best football in the world. If you like tippy-tappy, keep possession, dominate your team, then Barcelona play the best football in the world.

I look at the cheap alternatives, who's football do you prefer, those at Spurs? (the attacking football, power, explosiveness) or those at Arsenal (tippy-tappy, possession keepers) ?