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The Goon Thread

I should have qualified my earlier post and said this;

If Arsenal DON'T win the CL
Finish behind us in the PL AND
We finish in the top 4 AND
We qualify for the CL proper next season..........there will be MASS suicides amongst the Gooner faithful.
Seriously most of them WILL NOT be able to handle that and the club will go into meltdown; season ticket sales will be down, players wages cut (CL bonus/clauses), better players picked-off, inabiliy to attract higher-tier players (unless via extortianate wages)....

Here's hoping[-o<
 
They have the skill and the tactical smarts to properly set up and frustrate Arsenal, whose fans will be expecting champagne football and goals galore. And likely turning quite sour when they don't see that, worsening when Bayern hammer them on the counter.


If I heard an Arsenal fan say that, I'd consider him optimistic.

Bayern are 2nd in the the major European leagues when it comes to possession. (Barca are 1st, obviously.)

Schalke are 22nd in the major european leagues when it comes to possession. When Schalke met Arsenal they had about 60% possession in the 2-2 but had only about 40% possession in the 2-0 (backing up your suggestion that it may be a good idea to give Arsenal possession sometimes).

Arsenal can't defend... Ok, they did it against Sunderland for most of a half, but they can't do it against a good team for a whole match, let alone 2 whole matches... When Arsenal get a shock result against a team, they do it by being brick enough for the opposition team to camp on the edge of their box, then Walcott runs 50-66% of the pitch and scores.


I think first leg Bayern will have about 55-60% possession and then at home they'll have 65% possession. I'm not sure Arsenal will have the ball enough to be counter attacked.

I don't think Bayern would hand Arsenal possession. It's like Real Madrid, would they give Man United possession to be able to counter attack? It would make sense from a tactical point of view, but Real Madrid have pride and hate it when Mourinho sets his team up to do that sort of thing. Bayern are the same and Arsenal are not a good team.

Bayern are a possession team too, it'd be an unusual call to abandon their usual playing style. (Although logically I do see the point.) Arsenal usually fudge up when they're pressed anyway, so I think there are many many many ways Bayern can approach the match, I do appreciate they're away for the first leg, but simply outplaying Arsenal, outpassing Arsenal, outscoring Arsenal (away goals are valuable).... They don't need to mess with much.

I think it'd be slightly funnier if Arsenal did get pressed, outpassed and outplayed though. It'd be so much fun to see them with 30% possession at their own stadium and Arsene Wenger have to explain to their fans what just happened.


Final thought: Bayern have conceded 0 goals in 2013... Arsenal have conceded 13.
 
If I heard an Arsenal fan say that, I'd consider him optimistic.

Bayern are 2nd in the the major European leagues when it comes to possession. (Barca are 1st, obviously.)

Schalke are 22nd in the major european leagues when it comes to possession. When Schalke met Arsenal they had about 60% possession in the 2-2 but had only about 40% possession in the 2-0 (backing up your suggestion that it may be a good idea to give Arsenal possession sometimes).

Arsenal can't defend... Ok, they did it against Sunderland for most of a half, but they can't do it against a good team for a whole match, let alone 2 whole matches... When Arsenal get a shock result against a team, they do it by being brick enough for the opposition team to camp on the edge of their box, then Walcott runs 50-66% of the pitch and scores.


I think first leg Bayern will have about 55-60% possession and then at home they'll have 65% possession. I'm not sure Arsenal will have the ball enough to be counter attacked.

I don't think Bayern would hand Arsenal possession. It's like Real Madrid, would they give Man United possession to be able to counter attack? It would make sense from a tactical point of view, but Real Madrid have pride and hate it when Mourinho sets his team up to do that sort of thing. Bayern are the same and Arsenal are not a good team.

Bayern are a possession team too, it'd be an unusual call to abandon their usual playing style. (Although logically I do see the point.) Arsenal usually fudge up when they're pressed anyway, so I think there are many many many ways Bayern can approach the match, I do appreciate they're away for the first leg, but simply outplaying Arsenal, outpassing Arsenal, outscoring Arsenal (away goals are valuable).... They don't need to mess with much.

I think it'd be slightly funnier if Arsenal did get pressed, outpassed and outplayed though. It'd be so much fun to see them with 30% possession at their own stadium and Arsene Wenger have to explain to their fans what just happened.


Final thought: Bayern have conceded 0 goals in 2013... Arsenal have conceded 13.

All very well, except for the fact that you could have said much the same about Chelsea facing Barca and Bayern last season..........and still they fudged us.
 
I think Arsenal will win the first leg 2-1 because

A) They'll be like a wounded animal after the FA Cup defeat
B) They wont show the respect or be fearful that perhaps Bayern's German counterparts currently are
C) Bayern might be going into the game not having been in many strong tussles domestically to make them more 'battle hardened'
D) Podolski will be up for it!

I wouldn't be too upset with that; They are a confidence team and that confidence can quickly turn into complacency and I think that complacency could filter into their game against Villa and if not that, then definately their game after that against us.

I also don't want them to look forward to playing away matches because the atmosphere at the Emirates has become toxic. At least not until after they've played us...
 
A two key differences between Chelsea last season and Arsenal this year.

1. Chelsea knew they were inferior to Barcelona and Bayern. They knew the only way of getting a result would be to put 10 men behind the ball, frustrate them and hope to nick goals on the break. They managed to do this. I cannot see Wenger and Arsenal being so negative. Even if they were, their defence is a lot weaker than Chelsea's.

2. Chelsea won their group last season, meaning they got to play a 2nd round game against Napoli who finished 5th in Serie A that year. By the time they were in an unseeded draw, the likes of Man Utd, Emirates Marketing Project and Dortmund were already out of the competition, and when the quarter-finals came they got one of the easier draws in Benfica. This meant that there were only two rounds necessary to put 10 men behind the ball and get huge slices of luck the whole way through, that happens sometimes. Arsenal finished 2nd in their group and will be up against one of the tournament favourites from the 2nd round. Even if they do somehow manage to get past Bayern, they still have three rounds of difficult draws left, and even then if they luck out and get the winner of Galatasary/Schalke or Porto/Malaga, there's still going to be a lot of big guns left in that tournament, including the like of Juventus and PSG who have rejoined Europe's elite.
 
All very well, except for the fact that you could have said much the same about Chelsea facing Barca and Bayern last season..........and still they fudged us.

The only difference is that Chelsea's revolutionary 9-0-1/10-0-0 formation is one they are capable of playing. Arsenal cannot do that.

Bayern are still capable of fudging up if Arsenal pull off what they pulled off against Barca, getting outplayed to hell but Walcott counter attacking after Bayern miss a bunch of chances.

It's a case of Arsenal not being able to win 1-0, but maybe being able to win 2-1 or 3-2 if they are insanely lucky and Bayern let Walcott run 50-66% of the pitch a few times.

Football has always been a game in which a team can miss 100 shots and their opponent can score with 1. There is no match that you can say will 100% go a certain way. That's why 2 legged ties are awesome, Bayern were hugely disappointing in the final, but it was a one off game, they were at home, but Barca were even more disappointing. The one match I wanted them to win and they couldn't even do that, over 2 legs...


But I'm not worried. Arsenal always go out in the first round of the knockout stages. If Arsenal get past a couple of teams, then maybe I'll start to worry about the Chelsea miracle striking twice, but I'm of the opinion that extra games for Arsenal with virtually no chance of winning the competition isn't something to worry about yet, but that's if they pull off a miracle here.


I'm going to be extremely disappointed in Bayern if they even let Arsenal get a respectable loss over the 2 legs. I'm not desperate enough to just want any result that'll knock Arsenal out yet. I want them crushed.

I think Arsenal will win the first leg 2-1 because

A) They'll be like a wounded animal after the FA Cup defeat
B) They wont show the respect or be fearful that perhaps Bayern's German counterparts currently are
C) Bayern might be going into the game not having been in many strong tussles domestically to make them more 'battle hardened'
D) Podolski will be up for it!

I wouldn't be too upset with that; They are a confidence team and that confidence can quickly turn into complacency and I think that complacency could filter into their game against Villa and if not that, then definately their game after that against us.

I also don't want them to look forward to playing away matches because the atmosphere at the Emirates has become toxic. At least not until after they've played us...

A: Meh. I'd rather fight a dog with 2 legs than 4. I get your point, but if they are capable of performing better than they would have if they were still in the F.A cup, what does that say about their team? (It's true though. They will try harder.)

B: I don't know about that. Wenger recognizes Bayern are better than Arsenal, he recognized that before the F.A Cup game. If Blackburn wasn't enough to make Arsenal fear Bayern more than they would have, I'll be surprised. But if they don't respect Bayern's ability, that would probably be worse for them. Imagine playing Real Madrid without knowing anything about them. It'd be a disaster, I'd rather Arsenal go into the game thinking they can outplay Bayern rather than go into the game like Man United did against Real Madrid.

C:

27-01-2013 VfB Stuttgart 0 : 2 Bayern Munich
02-02-2013 Mainz 05 0 : 3 Bayern Munich
09-02-2013 Bayern Munich 4 : 0 Schalke 04
15-02-2013 Wolfsburg 0 : 2Bayern Munich

23-01-2013 Arsenal 5 : 1 West Ham
30-01-2013 Arsenal 2 : 2 Liverpool
02-02-2013 Arsenal 1 : 0 Stoke
09-02-2013 Sunderland 0 : 1 Arsenal


Bayern just won 4-0 vs a Schalke team that drew 2-2 with Arsenal and beat them 2-0.

Arsenal just had a 1-0 with a Rugby team.... They may be battle hardened because Foy reffed their home game against Stoke and as a result, Arsenal did have a battle. (Although Owen's punches suck.) But Bayern had the harder games.


D: Wenger currently thinks Podolski's best place is Arsenal's bench. He has been benched for their last 3 games. Wenger probably isn't stupid enough to not play him, but his 3 super subs against Blackburn were Walcott (promptly failed to track his runner 5 seconds after coming on and cost them a goal along with Cheesy), Cazorla and Wheelchair. So I'm not sure how highly he does value him... But anyway, 1 player being up for it does not make up for Arsenal being the inferior team, they need 11 players that are up for it to avoid embarrassment.



------------

Ignoring Bayern being the better team and all the obvious things...


A: The crowd may turn quicker than usual.

B: They have no lb. Monreal is cup tied as he played for Malaga (who have a better chance of winning the CL than Arsenal do). Vermaelen at LB is a train wreck every single time he plays there. It's amazing. There is no good alternative. Sanga has been awful at full back lately but even if he played LB and did well it'd mean Jenkinson would be at rb. Coqelen or whatever his name is might play there but he isn't exactly solid.

C: Bayern do not concede goals.

D: Arsenal will have a lot of pressure on them. That pressure doesn't usually cause them to play like world beaters, it usually causes the fans to label them all "bottlers" and causes a media frenzy when Arsenal are out of all competitions.


Think back to Milan last year, points B and D apply. The away leg was the first leg, it did not go well for them. They had no pressure for the home leg and salvaged some pride. I don't think Vermaelen played lb for the 2nd leg either.


For bonus points, whenever Vermaelen plays left back, it usually fudges up his CB form too.
 
Even if they do somehow manage to get past Bayern, they still have three rounds of difficult draws left, and even then if they luck out and get the winner of Galatasary/Schalke or Porto/Malaga, there's still going to be a lot of big guns left in that tournament, including the like of Juventus and PSG who have rejoined Europe's elite.



This would be the Galatasary with Drogba, the guy that always scores against them. (And other half decent players too.) This team can play Chelsea CL style.

The Schalke that beat them 2-0 and drew 2-2 with them in the group stages.

The Malaga that did amazingly well in the group stages and albeit without the LB they sold to Arsenal would still be more than competative. (On form, I'm sure Malaga would beat Arsenal. But Malaga's form has been hit and miss lately.)

In fairness I don't know much about Porto this season. They finished two points behind PSG after losing the final game of the group to PSG. To be honest, the way they were going, they looked like they'd win the group. They beat PSG 1-0 at home. But I just watched the CL highlights shows, so I mostly saw the same clips twice. I didn't watch any of the full matches and I have no clue about their league form or anything. I don't know their players or style well enough to be confident about predicting the way a match with Arsenal would go. But if they beat PSG 1-0 at home and only lost the away match 2-1, that doesn't seem too bad. The same results against Arsenal in the knockout stages would see them go through on away goals.
 
The only difference is that Chelsea's revolutionary 9-0-1/10-0-0 formation is one they are capable of playing. Arsenal cannot do that.

Bayern are still capable of fudging up if Arsenal pull off what they pulled off against Barca, getting outplayed to hell but Walcott counter attacking after Bayern miss a bunch of chances.

It's a case of Arsenal not being able to win 1-0, but maybe being able to win 2-1 or 3-2 if they are insanely lucky and Bayern let Walcott run 50-66% of the pitch a few times.

Football has always been a game in which a team can miss 100 shots and their opponent can score with 1. There is no match that you can say will 100% go a certain way. That's why 2 legged ties are awesome, Bayern were hugely disappointing in the final, but it was a one off game, they were at home, but Barca were even more disappointing. The one match I wanted them to win and they couldn't even do that, over 2 legs...


But I'm not worried. Arsenal always go out in the first round of the knockout stages. If Arsenal get past a couple of teams, then maybe I'll start to worry about the Chelsea miracle striking twice, but I'm of the opinion that extra games for Arsenal with virtually no chance of winning the competition isn't something to worry about yet, but that's if they pull off a miracle here.


I'm going to be extremely disappointed in Bayern if they even let Arsenal get a respectable loss over the 2 legs. I'm not desperate enough to just want any result that'll knock Arsenal out yet. I want them crushed.



A: Meh. I'd rather fight a dog with 2 legs than 4. I get your point, but if they are capable of performing better than they would have if they were still in the F.A cup, what does that say about their team? (It's true though. They will try harder.)

B: I don't know about that. Wenger recognizes Bayern are better than Arsenal, he recognized that before the F.A Cup game. If Blackburn wasn't enough to make Arsenal fear Bayern more than they would have, I'll be surprised. But if they don't respect Bayern's ability, that would probably be worse for them. Imagine playing Real Madrid without knowing anything about them. It'd be a disaster, I'd rather Arsenal go into the game thinking they can outplay Bayern rather than go into the game like Man United did against Real Madrid.

C:

27-01-2013 VfB Stuttgart 0 : 2 Bayern Munich
02-02-2013 Mainz 05 0 : 3 Bayern Munich
09-02-2013 Bayern Munich 4 : 0 Schalke 04
15-02-2013 Wolfsburg 0 : 2Bayern Munich

23-01-2013 Arsenal 5 : 1 West Ham
30-01-2013 Arsenal 2 : 2 Liverpool
02-02-2013 Arsenal 1 : 0 Stoke
09-02-2013 Sunderland 0 : 1 Arsenal


Bayern just won 4-0 vs a Schalke team that drew 2-2 with Arsenal and beat them 2-0.

Arsenal just had a 1-0 with a Rugby team.... They may be battle hardened because Foy reffed their home game against Stoke and as a result, Arsenal did have a battle. (Although Owen's punches suck.) But Bayern had the harder games.


D: Wenger currently thinks Podolski's best place is Arsenal's bench. He has been benched for their last 3 games. Wenger probably isn't stupid enough to not play him, but his 3 super subs against Blackburn were Walcott (promptly failed to track his runner 5 seconds after coming on and cost them a goal along with Cheesy), Cazorla and Wheelchair. So I'm not sure how highly he does value him... But anyway, 1 player being up for it does not make up for Arsenal being the inferior team, they need 11 players that are up for it to avoid embarrassment.



------------

Ignoring Bayern being the better team and all the obvious things...


A: The crowd may turn quicker than usual.

B: They have no lb. Monreal is cup tied as he played for Malaga (who have a better chance of winning the CL than Arsenal do). Vermaelen at LB is a train wreck every single time he plays there. It's amazing. There is no good alternative. Sanga has been awful at full back lately but even if he played LB and did well it'd mean Jenkinson would be at rb. Coqelen or whatever his name is might play there but he isn't exactly solid.

C: Bayern do not concede goals.

D: Arsenal will have a lot of pressure on them. That pressure doesn't usually cause them to play like world beaters, it usually causes the fans to label them all "bottlers" and causes a media frenzy when Arsenal are out of all competitions.


Think back to Milan last year, points B and D apply. The away leg was the first leg, it did not go well for them. They had no pressure for the home leg and salvaged some pride. I don't think Vermaelen played lb for the 2nd leg either.


For bonus points, whenever Vermaelen plays left back, it usually fudges up his CB form too.

Bloody hell, Fuego! That's the second epic I've seen you post in a matter of days! No offence, mate, but have you considered the virtues of brevity?

Can you give me the abridged version, please?
 
Bloody hell, Fuego! That's the second epic I've seen you post in a matter of days! No offence, mate, but have you considered the virtues of brevity?

Can you give me the abridged version, please?


Sure.


In response to your point:
"All very well, except for the fact that you could have said much the same about Chelsea facing Barca and Bayern last season..........and still they fudged us."

I said "Arsenal cannot defend. Counter attacking via Walcott is their only option to fudge us." I then said "you can't be 100% confident predicting a winner of a match due to the nature of football". Bayern have 2 legs. The competition only just went to the knockout stage. No need to worry yet.

-------

I responded to glorygloryeze's 4 point list by dismissing most of his points. Bayern have played tougher games than Arsenal lately, etc.

I then added four points of my own. The main non obvious one being Arsenal have no lb and that usually causes them to fudge up on an epic level.

-------

I then responded to SUIYHA by saying that the 4 weak teams Arsenal may be lucky to be drawn against if they perform two miracles vs Bayern are all probably capable of knocking them out. Schalke might go into the 2 legs as favourites due to winning and drawing with Arsenal in the group stages.
 
Arsenal aren't suited to 2 legged football.
They concede too many away goals.

The Champion's LEague format is better suited to average defensive teams like Benitez's Liverpool, Mourinho's Inter or Chelsea last year.
 
Best result is Bayern will stuff them in the first round, but the Scum will still have to play a strong team in the 2nd, just because they can't look like they are rolling over.
 
Media and fans are fickle. If Arsenal get a result against Bayern the headline will read Wenger proves his critics wrong. Undoubtedly the best result is a hammering that will render the 2nd leg meaningless and compound their misery.

I suspect they'll scrape a 1 nil or 2-1 win.
 
reports that the Goons want to extend Wenger's contract by another 2 years which will see his stay there till 2016, and that will mark his 20th year there.

good for Spurs?? I doubt Wenger will change the habit of a lifetime and start spending the big wad of cash now at his disposal. Its not his style, and he is uber stubborn to change his ways now. So the slide will continue

If they got rid of Wenger at the end of this season then who knows depending on the managerial merry-go-round they might end up with a Mourinho or an Ancelotti, and i certainly wouldnt want that
 
I fully expect Bayern to knock out Arsenal, but in terms of the battle for fourth, it is very much on. Arsenal are still a good Premier League team. Yes they have considerably dropped from what they were in the last decade or so. But we are only competitive with them, not miles ahead by any stretch of the imagination. Offensively they will be able to cause us a lot of issues at the Lane if we are not 100% up for it.

The midfield trio might be lacking that tenacity without Song (Although Wheelchair has some for sure), but the quality of Arteta, Cazorla and Wheelchair is in no doubt. Walcott has shown in the past he can always cause us problems. Podolski has genuine quality. And Giroud has scored a fair few and can be a handful.

They suffer from a lack of a leader, much like us at times. But without Bale, I think they would be perhaps even comfortably better than us right now. That's probably on how we are currently performing offensively. What we need is a game where we are all switched on from the go and really at them. I really do hope we will be a team desperately wanting to right some wrongs and in particular the 5-2 trouncings.

I really hope we play Holtby in this game. I feel with him being his tenacious self, it will allow us to really compete v their 3. Parker, Holtby and Dembele should be quite ferocious. Holtby wouldn't allow Arteta time to settle on the ball which is important.

I really do hope Benny and Walker don't have one of their self destruct games. If we keep Walcott and Podolski in check then I feel we are free to cause them absolute mayhem the other way, which I know we absolutely can. If Defoe is back, I do wonder what AVB will be thinking. Whether to go 2 up top. I hope he plays Ade. I remain confident that he will prove a lot of people wrong in this game.

Weeks away, and I'm already buzzing for this NLD.
 
I fully expect Bayern to knock out Arsenal, but in terms of the battle for fourth, it is very much on. Arsenal are still a good Premier League team. Yes they have considerably dropped from what they were in the last decade or so. But we are only competitive with them, not miles ahead by any stretch of the imagination. Offensively they will be able to cause us a lot of issues at the Lane if we are not 100% up for it.

The midfield trio might be lacking that tenacity without Song (Although Wheelchair has some for sure), but the quality of Arteta, Cazorla and Wheelchair is in no doubt. Walcott has shown in the past he can always cause us problems. Podolski has genuine quality. And Giroud has scored a fair few and can be a handful.

They suffer from a lack of a leader, much like us at times. But without Bale, I think they would be perhaps even comfortably better than us right now. That's probably on how we are currently performing offensively. What we need is a game where we are all switched on from the go and really at them. I really do hope we will be a team desperately wanting to right some wrongs and in particular the 5-2 trouncings.

I really hope we play Holtby in this game. I feel with him being his tenacious self, it will allow us to really compete v their 3. Parker, Holtby and Dembele should be quite ferocious. Holtby wouldn't allow Arteta time to settle on the ball which is important.

I really do hope Benny and Walker don't have one of their self destruct games. If we keep Walcott and Podolski in check then I feel we are free to cause them absolute mayhem the other way, which I know we absolutely can. If Defoe is back, I do wonder what AVB will be thinking. Whether to go 2 up top. I hope he plays Ade. I remain confident that he will prove a lot of people wrong in this game.

Weeks away, and I'm already buzzing for this NLD.

Yep. Arsenal are still a huge threat to our league position. In addition to the strengths that you list above, I would also say that they have easier remaining games than us. So the NLD really could be key.
 
Against Arsenal I'd play:

..........................Lloris
Walker....Dawson....Vertonghen....Ekotto
Lennon...Parker..........Dembele......Bale
......................Holtby..............................
..........................Adebayor.....................

Such a shame that we'll miss Kaboul and Sandro for this one.
 
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