The Defensive Midfielder

[indianspur]

They didn't play 2 up, there was always one defending deeper.

That's OK if you're parking the bus and playing on the break but I can't see many Spurs fans going for bus parking as a tactic.

if you play two up you can still allow one to drop deep.....some of the best strike partnerships had one dropping deep or floating around more.

I really dont think Spam parked the bus at all

 

[scaramanga]

if you play two up you can still allow one to drop deep.....some of the best strike partnerships had one dropping deep or floating around more.

I really dont think Spam parked the bus at all

There's dropping deep and then there's what Spam did when the second forward is essentially a midfielder. The second forward wasn't dropping deep to get into space or to create from deeper, he was just playing a role far more defensive than that of a forward (a midfielder).

What they played was no different to a 4-3-2-1 except that one of the 2 is used to playing further forward and that the 2 and the 1 interchanged from time to time.

Personally, I don't see how West Ham not playing 2 up front makes a good argument for playing 2 up front.

 

[indianspur]

There's dropping deep and then there's what Spam did when the second forward is essentially a midfielder.

What they played was no different to a 4-3-2-1 except that one of the 2 is used to playing further forward and that the 2 and the 1 interchanged from time to time.

Personally, I don't see how West Ham not playing 2 up front makes a good argument for playing 2 up front.

i think my original point was mainly about the diamond in midfield.

Oxford was at the base, Payet at the tip and Kouyate and Nolan at the sides, with Zarate coming back to help

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Following Dier's recent performances, interesting to ask if those dead set against the concedpt of a defensive midfielder and the exponents of the "double pivot" are still of the same opinion?

 

[billyiddo]

Following Dier's recent performances, interesting to ask if those dead set against the concedpt of a defensive midfielder and the exponents of the "double pivot" are still of the same opinion?

Both setups work well if deployed correctly. The issue over the summer was what were we (Poch) going to do this season, switch to a DM/CM setup or improve our existing double pivot setup? personally I didn't envisage the change we have seen in our tactical approach in this area, I thought we would look to continue much the same way but train Mason/Bentaleb to perform their roles better (in terms of defensive awareness) or sign a better alternative for the first team, but it looks as though Poch isn't as inflexible/stuck on one approach as some may think!

 

[robotsonic]

Completely for the concept of a defensive midfielder, as we've not really ever had a good one (or really used the role correctly), and we all know that our defence is historically leaky as an old boat and we can't close down players encroaching on the box looking to shoot. A decent DM will either stop those players getting into those areas at all (cut ball out or cut option off), or close down the player to free the CBs up to back up and watch for runners and one-twos.

I do wonder though, however great Dier is playing in this role, and he is playing great, whether it might be Jan that could really excel here in the longer term. He's good with the ball at his feet and bringing the ball out of defence, and prone to a critical slip-up when the last man. I see Dier as our CB for some time coming if he can continue this trend of improvement, and I think we're probably grooming him for that role after this spell at DM a-la King (even if that was never the intention with King, it certainly helped him). Maybe we give him some utility experience for a half season and then try to swap him and Jan and...see how that goes. I think Vertonghen would make a great DM. Good with the ball, and can read the game well but wouldn't be having to make the critical last-ditch tackles with a lack of pace. Dier can and does make those tackles (another at the weekend from DM), is quicker across the ground and more assertive and assured. Jan is no leader, but he wouldn't have to be. Dier can be. I think Jan would make a great clean-up, break-up, cover man, and probably better at turning play around than Dier after recovering/intercepting the ball.

But...who knows. I had a couple of beers watching tonight's shower of brick, so not sure what I know!

 

[GrimsbyYid]

Not only does the name double pivot aggregate me, watching mason and bentsleb be so in effective in such tactics did more so. I always wanted a more defensive partner, I always thought our defence wasn't being protected enough, and always thought it would fre up the partner to actually provide a link to the attack, both of which were embarrassingly poor last season.

Weather it's person well or what, all I know is that all my suspicions have come true and there are signs of a good midfield tactically.

But I also know the difference between causation and correlation....

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Following Dier's recent performances, interesting to ask if those dead set against the concedpt of a defensive midfielder and the exponents of the "double pivot" are still of the same opinion?

I was of the opinion that Mason and Bentaleb could work. It was of course their only season together under a manager in his first season as well. Whilst our performances this season haven't been stand out or showed the best of what we were able to produce last year, we do look a lot more defensively solid and I think this is to Dier's credit.

There will be times when we may have to use the Bentaleb - Mason partnership. I wouldn't rule this out for working, but at this present moment in time Dier is one of the few players that cannot be dropped.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was of the opinion that Mason and Bentaleb could work. It was of course their only season together under a manager in his first season as well. Whilst our performances this season haven't been stand out or showed the best of what we were able to produce last year, we do look a lot more defensively solid and I think this is to Dier's credit.

There will be times when we may have to use the Bentaleb - Mason partnership. I wouldn't rule this out for working, but at this present moment in time Dier is one of the few players that cannot be dropped.

That partnership worked well against better sises that actually attacked us

diers new role is working against sides that just play on the counter

There is a balance to be found and we have to be flexible but right now Dier is first choice for me

 

[scaramanga]

Following Dier's recent performances, interesting to ask if those dead set against the concedpt of a defensive midfielder and the exponents of the "double pivot" are still of the same opinion?

I don't think Dier playing well in a position makes that position any more or less the right way to play.

For me, it's too defensive for a possession side and it's way too predictable and easy to defend against. That's not to take anything away from how well Dier's done, and given his current resources (and who was available in the summer) I can see why Poch is playing this way.

I'd rather see a proper double pivot when everyone's fit - it suits our football better. That said, Dier is hardly a Scott Parker when it comes to passing, so this is far less damaging than it would be with a traditional DM. We are losing quite a bit of passing ability, but so far Dier's completion is way up on last year.

I still think we gain more in am attacking sense by playing Bentaleb than we lose defensively.

 

[parklane1]

Not only does the name double pivot aggregate me, watching mason and bentsleb be so in effective in such tactics did more so. I always wanted a more defensive partner, I always thought our defence wasn't being protected enough, and always thought it would fre up the partner to actually provide a link to the attack, both of which were embarrassingly poor last season.

For a while last season I think it was just you and I ( on here) saying just that, thankfully as the season progressed others started to see what our biggest problem was. Our back four were facing the " charge of the light phalanx" every time we lost the ball because the Mason/Bentleb pairing was no where to be seen against the opposing team runners.

Thankfully Poch eventually saw this as well and decided we needed to give the back four more protection, Dier has stepped into this position and made a lot of difference and for a kid of 21 has done really well.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I still think an issue is defending from the front which we have been poor at

Deal with that and the rest of the defending is easier

But anyone who can't see the improvement made defensively with Dier there would be blind

I'm not sure it's a long term solution but he is there on merit now

 

[Maltese Falcon]

For a while last season I think it was just you and I ( on here) saying just that,

Hellloooo!!

 

[parklane1]

Hellloooo!!

 

[Maltese Falcon]

That said, Dier is hardly a Scott Parker when it comes to passing, so this is far less damaging than it would be with a traditional DM.

Just cannot resist a jibe can you?

Seeing as you are so keen about stats... of course the fact that in his first season, Parker produced significantly more forward passes and had a greater pass completion rate than Dier has dome this year or the last is an inconvenient detail that is best ignored; not to mention the three fold higher key pass rate nor the fact that he created twice as many chances per 90 minutes....

 

[scaramanga]

Just cannot resist a jibe can you?

Seeing as you are so keen about stats... of course the fact that in his first season, Parker produced significantly more forward passes and had a greater pass completion rate than Dier has dome this year or the last is an inconvenient detail that is best ignored; not to mention the three fold higher key pass rate nor the fact that he created twice as many chances per 90 minutes....

The stat you're missing is how often the player Parker passed to lost the ball. Another useful one would be squandered opportunities when he elected to spin in circles instead.

 

[Spurs7891]

Following Dier's recent performances, interesting to ask if those dead set against the concedpt of a defensive midfielder and the exponents of the "double pivot" are still of the same opinion?

Dier has done well so far. But I think he will get find out when we come up against big teams like ManCity, Chelsea or Arsenal. We badly needed an established defensive midfielder to protect us when we play those teams. I am still not convinced Dier will become one.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The stat you're missing is how often the player Parker passed to lost the ball. Another useful one would be squandered opportunities when he elected to spin in circles instead.

Scott Parker was an excellent central midfielder who played there for his whole professional career (I think)

Eric Dier is just starting a career as a central midfielder. He has certainly shown some promise and may have a future as a holding player. If he ends up being as good as Scott Parker was then we'll be very lucky indeed. I think he'll still probably end up as a centre half though.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The stat you're missing is how often the player Parker passed to lost the ball. Another useful one would be squandered opportunities when he elected to spin in circles instead.

Ahhhhh the "Parker Pirouette" those were the days!.... To be fair Parker typically did these when he was trying to protect the ball when he didn't have a decent passing option on.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think Dier playing well in a position makes that position any more or less the right way to play.

For me, it's too defensive for a possession side and it's way too predictable and easy to defend against. That's not to take anything away from how well Dier's done, and given his current resources (and who was available in the summer) I can see why Poch is playing this way.

I'd rather see a proper double pivot when everyone's fit - it suits our football better. That said, Dier is hardly a Scott Parker when it comes to passing, so this is far less damaging than it would be with a traditional DM. We are losing quite a bit of passing ability, but so far Dier's completion is way up on last year.

I still think we gain more in am attacking sense by playing Bentaleb than we lose defensively.

I disagree with you about it being too defensive for a possession side. If you take the holding midfielder out of the equation then there are still 5 attacking players and that is in addition to our two full backs who are given lots of license to get forward. If that isn't enough attacking players then I would say that it is the personnel that we have wrong.

I think in a possession side it is perhaps even more crucial to play a holding player, this is because we tend to move the ball forward quite slowly and gradually gets lots of players forward, this leaves a huge amount of space for the opposition to exploit on the break if they win the ball when our team is advanced. With our marauding fullbacks and the huge spaces behind us, it becomes even more key that we play a holding player as that allows our centre halves to peel out wide and Dier to slot in to ensure we're not outnumbered centrally.