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So called travellers

Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Do you remember signs on shop doors that said 'No Blacks. No Irish'? I do - how is this different? Generalising a culture or community - assigning negative characteristics across the board - it's the actual definition of prejudice.
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Because it's generalising a choice.

Nobody chooses to be black, Irish, gay, etc so we cannot and should not discriminate against that.

People choose to live a lifestyle that breaks a number of laws and causes a nuisance to those around them. We can judge on that choice. Just like we can judge someone for choosing to be a thief, a wife beater, squatter, vandal, etc.

Except gingers. Everyone hates gingers with good reason.
 
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scaramanga said:
Because it's generalising a choice.

Nobody chooses to be black, Irish, gay, etc so we cannot and should not discriminate against that.

People choose to live a lifestyle that breaks a number of laws and causes a nuisance to those around them. We can judge on that choice. Just like we can judge someone for choosing to be a thief, a wife beater, squatter, vandal, etc.

Except gingers. Everyone hates gingers with good reason.
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Well the alarm bells go off in my head whenever the word 'all' is used in association with a negative comment re a group in society.
 
Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Do you remember signs on shop doors that said 'No Blacks. No Irish'? I do - how is this different? Generalising a culture or community - assigning negative characteristics across the board - it's the actual definition of prejudice.
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I would say this, I like in a road of around 100+ houses in Croydon with multicultural families across the board, we have no problems.

I know for a fact I could not say the same if the whole street was full of travellers.
 
Well, I speak as I find, and I've found nothing that owuld ever lead me to tar a whole culture with intolerance and Nazi language. My only issue is I'm very curious as to why some Travelling communities don't encourage reading and writing - on a practical level, it's pretty disabling for a child not to be brought up to read and write, plus your limiting the often extraordinary experience of spending time with a book. And we know that reading and writing helps the brain develop really well, as does learning music/an instrument etc. But, each to their own. When we smear a whole culture, we're in fudging trouble as humans and I think we can do way, way better.
 
Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Well, I speak as I find, and I've found nothing that owuld ever lead me to tar a whole culture with intolerance and Nazi language. My only issue is I'm very curious as to why some Travelling communities don't encourage reading and writing - on a practical level, it's pretty disabling for a child not to be bought up to read and write, plus your limiting the often extraordinary experience of spending time with a book. And we know that reading and writing helps the brain develop really well, as does learning music/an instrument etc. But, each to their own. When we smear a whole culture, we're in fudging trouble as humans and I think we can do way, way better.
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Oh, I did so well and then you went and did it. :) The main reason they don't educate the kids is to keep them dependent on the life style I would think.
 
Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Well, I speak as I find, and I've found nothing that owuld ever lead me to tar a whole culture with intolerance and Nazi language. My only issue is I'm very curious as to why some Travelling communities don't encourage reading and writing - on a practical level, it's pretty disabling for a child not to be bought up to read and write, plus your limiting the often extraordinary experience of spending time with a book. And we know that reading and writing helps the brain develop really well, as does learning music/an instrument etc. But, each to their own. When we smear a whole culture, we're in fudging trouble as humans and I think we can do way, way better.
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Replace "culture" with race, gender, sexuality, etc and I'd agree with you.

Culture is a choice though. If I decided that it's my culture to break into people's houses and steal their stuff, would that be protected because I've stated it's my culture? Or should I be treated as someone who has refused to live by the laws that we have in place?
 
scaramanga said:
Replace "culture" with race, gender, sexuality, etc and I'd agree with you.

Culture is a choice though. If I decided that it's my culture to break into people's houses and steal their stuff, would that be protected because I've stated it's my culture? Or should I be treated as someone who has refused to live by the laws that we have in place?
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Okay, but I still don't think it's right as he said above to describe people as vermin. That is beyond the pale. What about the little kids? What choice do they have?
 
Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Well, I speak as I find, and I've found nothing that owuld ever lead me to tar a whole culture with intolerance and Nazi language. My only issue is I'm very curious as to why some Travelling communities don't encourage reading and writing - on a practical level, it's pretty disabling for a child not to be bought up to read and write, plus your limiting the often extraordinary experience of spending time with a book. And we know that reading and writing helps the brain develop really well, as does learning music/an instrument etc. But, each to their own. When we smear a whole culture, we're in fudging trouble as humans and I think we can do way, way better.
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Or paying taxes, or working on a PAYE, or cleaning, or living like a normal human, or not bare knuckle fighting, or not stealing electric from homes, or not scamming people??

I could go on
 
scaramanga said:
Replace "culture" with race, gender, sexuality, etc and I'd agree with you.

Culture is a choice though. If I decided that it's my culture to break into people's houses and steal their stuff, would that be protected because I've stated it's my culture? Or should I be treated as someone who has refused to live by the laws that we have in place?
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Culture is history and emobodied, embedded social practice and much more. You don't choose to be born into it. And if you are, more likely than not you're going to defend it, as anyone would. It often takes massive strength of mind to break free, as I'm sure you can imagine. As I said before, plenty of people can be clams - I lived opposite The Boleyn pub for a while so you can imagine (yes, people with actual Nazi tatoos - lovely) - what I find really troubling is the sweeping generalisation that a whole group of people with their own history and stories can be dismissed as feral or scum or whatever. That is the language of fascism. And we're Tottenham fans. Amazing.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Or paying taxes, or working on a PAYE, or cleaning, or living like a normal human, or not bare knuckle fighting, or not stealing electric from homes, or not scamming people??

I could go on
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Yes, but they don't all do that, do they? I know plenty that wouldn't dream of it. They just trade horses.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Okay, but I still don't think it's right as he said above to describe people as vermin. That is beyond the pale. What about the little kids? What choice do they have?
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The choices they make when they grow up? To act like vermin like their parents? Or you saying they are just a product of their upbringing which in that case gives them every right to do what they want and we just let them carry on.

Lovely
 
Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Yes, but they don't all do that, do they? I know plenty that wouldn't dream of it. They just trade horses.
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I had one live round the corner for years, terrorised the neighbourhood, the local circus coming to blackshots park in Essex did the same, the Buckles Lane travellers tormented Lakeside and stole.

All my experiences have been of a bunch of people who want to steal and live freely and not get picked up for it.

As far as I am concerned they are gutter rats.
 
Eatmyownbrainwithaspork said:
Culture is history and emobodied, embedded social practice and much more. You don't choose to be born into it. And if you are, more likely than not you're going to defend it, as anyone would. It often takes massive strength of mind to break free, as I'm sure you can imagine. As I said before, plenty of people can be clams - I lived opposite The Boleyn pub for a while so you can imagine (yes, people with actual Nazi tatoos - lovely) - what I find really troubling is the sweeping generalisation that a whole group of people with their own history and stories can be dismissed as feral or scum or whatever. That is the language of fascism. And we're Tottenham fans. Amazing.
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I would lay my house on it that the % of the Travelling community that are utter scum is far greater than that of the local white community in East London and there are lots more of them.

I have only had brief encounters with travellers and each one has been with a scum bag criminal....so are you saying that's unlucky? Because of many other encounters with every other race I the % of scum bags I meet is much lower even though I encounter them more.
 
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