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Putin & Russia

Rorschach said:
Different MO's really. NATO can only glare angrily at the bear. Anything more would trigger some very bad stuff. The EU can wield the power of the biggest market on the planet and hit them in the wallet, as the Russian economy can testify to this morning. Single nations acting alone would not achieve anything close to the same results.
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Definite and clear benefits to having both (and more).

Individual interests of different countries would be much harder to overcome to reach a strong reaction like we have now. Or as strong a reaction.
 
Jordinho said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1497923042101575685

The bully doesn't like being stood up to.

At some point he must surely realise there's no outcome here that won't leave Russia as the biggest loser. The worry is what he'll do then.
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That's the scary thing. What will he do then. Above all else, he does not want to appear weak. fudging mad situation to be in. Push him against the wall, and what will he do. I shiver at the thought of it.
 
Jordinho said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1497923042101575685

The bully doesn't like being stood up to.

At some point he must surely realise there's no outcome here that won't leave Russia as the biggest loser. The worry is what he'll do then.
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"Aggressive statements" - that's rich. Aggressive fudging statements. We just launched an invasion on a sovereign country, but the west are making aggressive statements.

Coward and a bully.

Agree with your concerns. What will happen if (I'd like to say when) a drawn out and costly conflict in Ukraine doesn't present a win for him to spin at home for the people he oppresses at home.

I fear lifted sanctions and a return to the previous status quo won't ever be enough. That will still be a defeat. So concessions for him to spin as a win or the risk of further escalation?

I would be desperate for a defeat for Putin. But if a defeat starts threatening world peace would the west try to find some "creative" solution. More accommodation to the despot in chief?
 
braineclipse said:
Which would only result in a not united nations because countries wouldn't join or most of the same issues.
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Would a UN that only had democracies in it be any worse off?

I can't see how a UN where Russia can veto actions against its own imperialism can do its job.
 
scaramanga said:
Would a UN that only had democracies in it be any worse off?

I can't see how a UN where Russia can veto actions against its own imperialism can do its job.
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It wouldn't be a UN. Let's start a DN - democratic nations? But then the US would want veto power, along with several others I would guess.

We already mostly have the cooperation a DN would give us. Though isolationsts want us to weaken ties between nations.

The UN is, and should be, something different imo. And it is, though flawed, it does some good.
 
Daisuk said:
That's the scary thing. What will he do then. Above all else, he does not want to appear weak. fudging mad situation to be in. Push him against the wall, and what will he do. I shiver at the thought of it.
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I think if things get very scary, the CIA will be able to unleash whichever of Putin's deputies they have on their payroll to put a quick end to it. I might read a lot of spy books, but you do assume (hope) there's an emergency brake like that in place.
 
scaramanga said:
Would a UN that only had democracies in it be any worse off?

I can't see how a UN where Russia can veto actions against its own imperialism can do its job.
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one nation one vote, whether they are democracies or not. Of course I would prefer if all nations were proper democracies.

all nations are equal whether that’s China or Belgium.

won’t be perfect, but better than what we have now.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think if things get very scary, the CIA will be able to unleash whichever of Putin's deputies they have on their payroll to put a quick end to it. I might read a lot of spy books, but you do assume (hope) there's an emergency brake like that in place.
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might be tricky as no one is allowed to get within 30 feet of him.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think if things get very scary, the CIA will be able to unleash whichever of Putin's deputies they have on their payroll to put a quick end to it. I might read a lot of spy books, but you do assume (hope) there's an emergency brake like that in place.
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He's thinking the same by the looks of it.
 
braineclipse said:
"Aggressive statements" - that's rich. Aggressive fudging statements. We just launched an invasion on a sovereign country, but the west are making aggressive statements.

Coward and a bully.

Agree with your concerns. What will happen if (I'd like to say when) a drawn out and costly conflict in Ukraine doesn't present a win for him to spin at home for the people he oppresses at home.

I fear lifted sanctions and a return to the previous status quo won't ever be enough. That will still be a defeat. So concessions for him to spin as a win or the risk of further escalation?

I would be desperate for a defeat for Putin. But if a defeat starts threatening world peace would the west try to find some "creative" solution. More accommodation to the despot in chief?
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I see Ukraine have demanded a complete withdrawal of Russian troops, including Crimea, while Russia are no doubt demanding an unconditional surrender. Those negotiations aren't going anywhere any time soon.
 
DTA said:
one nation one vote, whether they are democracies or not. Of course I would prefer if all nations were proper democracies.

all nations are equal whether that’s China or Belgium.

won’t be perfect, but better than what we have now.
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Not perfect. Also not doable. None of the countries with more power at the moment will give that up any time soon.

Everyone except Belgium would have been my suggestion. That or 10 votes each with votes subtracted for doing things like invading other countries, killing dissidents and journalists, performing genocides, or being Belgium.

The absolute impossibility of even the most reasonable suggestion to changing the UN only highlights what a difficult role they have. Should go a long way towards understanding their lack of efficacy.
 
Jordinho said:
I see Ukraine have demanded a complete withdrawal of Russian troops, including Crimea, while Russia are no doubt demanding an unconditional surrender. Those negotiations aren't going anywhere any time soon.
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Still find myself in the rather strange position of hoping for a long drawn out conflict as the best realistic outcome. Hope I'm wrong about that.
 
A potential dangerous flash point is the Dardanelles. Turkey have activated (on request from Ukraine) a war time provision to stop war ships from entering the Black Sea unless they are returning to base.

the problem is the Dardanelles can’t be shut by shutting a door, you have to stop ships militarily. Will Turkey Fire on Russian ships? Will Russia fire on Turkish war ships that are trying to block their path?

Turkey being a member of NATO, will this this invoke article 5?

what happens if the Russian ships don’t return to base but join in with the invasion? Will Turkey then have to stop all Russian war ships, that could be seen as an act of war by Russia and against the international treaty which governs Turkeys control over the Dardanelles. What will NATOs reaction be to this?
 
braineclipse said:
Not perfect. Also not doable. None of the countries with more power at the moment will give that up any time soon.

Everyone except Belgium would have been my suggestion. That or 10 votes each with votes subtracted for doing things like invading other countries, killing dissidents and journalists, performing genocides, or being Belgium.

The absolute impossibility of even the most reasonable suggestion to changing the UN only highlights what a difficult role they have. Should go a long way towards understanding their lack of efficacy.
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Is this the whole Leopold II thing?
 
braineclipse said:
Still find myself in the rather strange position of hoping for a long drawn out conflict as the best realistic outcome. Hope I'm wrong about that.
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It is very hard to see any good outcomes for the people of Ukraine.

And I don’t really have any interest in Seeing Russia destroy itself either. But there are now pathways opening for that to happen.
 
Lilbaz said:
The fa has now come out and said england won't play russia.

Seriously what are fifa thinking? Oh they can play at a neutral venue. What neutral venue? What country is going to say, ok you can play at our ground?
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China, Syria and Belarus

Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk
 
DTA said:
A potential dangerous flash point is the Dardanelles. Turkey have activated (on request from Ukraine) a war time provision to stop war ships from entering the Black Sea unless they are returning to base.

the problem is the Dardanelles can’t be shut by shutting a door, you have to stop ships militarily. Will Turkey Fire on Russian ships? Will Russia fire on Turkish war ships that are trying to block their path?

Turkey being a member of NATO, will this this invoke article 5?

what happens if the Russian ships don’t return to base but join in with the invasion? Will Turkey then have to stop all Russian war ships, that could be seen as an act of war by Russia and against the international treaty which governs Turkeys control over the Dardanelles. What will NATOs reaction be to this?
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That is really easy. Turkey tell the Russians that they will be sent to the bottom of the sea if they do not comply with their instructions.
 
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