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Politics, politics, politics

Seriously though. Of those who call the Iraq war illegal, what proportion know a single thing about any kind of law?

And what proportion are protester types that would jump on any old bandwagon that sticks it to "the man"?

In all the times this issue has been discussed on this forum only one legal expert has ever weighed in with his opinion and he came down firmly on the side of legal, without any qualification to his judgement whatsoever.

Was that the one who threw his toys out of the pram when several people disagreed with him and no longer posts here. As for the rest of your post i do understand the point you make. However Blair took us into a war on a lie and cost many lives ( a very good friend of mine lost his son and he is now a shell of the person he was).

I have not desire to go through the debate on the war again ( been there done that) but what i will say is that i have no love for any government but we elect them so have to abide by that. They have the power to put up/down wages, make stupid laws, protect there own interests etc, but they have no right to take us to war on a lie and they should be brought to task for doing so.
 
Clarke. But the point is good for both really.

I really am serious about taking the family to the US, whether we stay in the EU or not does not matter hugely to me as without being roostery, I have enough money for it to not really effect me.

But the most important thing in my life is that my son grows up to be strong and independent of mind and spirit. I could not care less if he became a Muslim, gay or married someone from abroad (I did). But I worry if we stay in this country he will become a negative little cry baby that can not make decisions for himself or is to shy to go out into the world and make something of himself. I am serious if he grew up to be like one of those protesters or lawyers I would disown him.

Huh? But Clarke is one of the most pro-EU MPs there is; are you sure you are talking about him?
 
@parklane1 I think I understand. You are saying the Remain side are the ones who manipulated facts, while Leave were factual and honest with their campaign info?

Have I understood?


Sent on the go.
 
The remain side were just as guilty of manipulating and banding facts to suit their argument.

One of the major facts in the Tory General election, linked to Remain was a dodgy pledge on immigration. Also WW3 being thrown around was pretty loose.

Anyway in other news what are people making of Tony Blair?
 
The remain side were just as guilty of manipulating and banding facts to suit their argument.

One of the major facts in the Tory General election, linked to Remain was a dodgy pledge on immigration. Also WW3 being thrown around was pretty loose.

Anyway in other news what are people making of Tony Blair?

General election was a separate vote...to state the obvious.
The EU was founded out of the ashes of WWII. What were the WW3 things being thrown around and by who?

The above compared to:
  • False claims about Turkey joining the EU.
  • False claims about the money that we'd save.
  • Assertions that the economy would not suffer - the pound has drooped 10%! - which was predicted. @parklane1 I think you compared it to Project Fear when I mentioned it pre-vote.
You mention pledges on immigration. Has there been any more dodgy inferences on immigration than by Leave and UKIP? The fact that the EU has no impact on most of our immigration, and that they used this as their key policy to get votes (but they forgot to talk about delivery). They seem to have permanently forgotten. Even after winning, no one has outlined how they will protect free trade and the economy while sorting immigration.

So you can hold your hand on your heart and say: Remain and Leave were equally dishonest?
 
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If you any of you know about the secretive Bilderberg Group (a confab held for politicians, statesman, big businesses, banks) then here is Bliar being confronted about the confab admitting he did go to the meetings (including Cameron in 2008) thus lied to Parliment when questioned about it and inadvertently admitting it was a conflict of interest leaving him red-faced. This just shows who he represents, not the people that elected him, but the powerful special interest groups that want perpetual war because you and I know war is big business.

 
General election was a separate vote...to state the obvious.
The EU was founded out of the ashes of WWII. What were the WW3 things being thrown around and by who?

The above compared to:
  • False claims about Turkey joining the EU.
  • False claims about the money that we'd save.
  • Assertions that the economy would not suffer - the pound has drooped 10%! - which was predicted. @parklane1 I think you compared it to Project Fear when I mentioned it pre-vote.
You mention pledges on immigration. Has there been any more dodgy inferences on immigration than by Leave and UKIP? The fact that the EU has no impact on most of our immigration, and that they used this as their key policy to get votes (but they forgot to talk about delivery). They seem to have permanently forgotten. Even after winning, no one has outlined how they will protect free trade and the economy while sorting immigration.

So you can hold your hand on your heart and say: Remain and Leave were equally dishonest?

I know its a separate vote, what I am saying is being cloudy with facts has happened in both votes, by all parties concerned, so people clinging onto the side of bus slogans as a reason to vote again is desperate.

I will just post a few links to some of the points.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/government-made-no-plans-brexit-7930947

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rkers-is-illegal-European-President-says.html

https://next.ft.com/content/18bf26d0-98d5-11df-9418-00144feab49a

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/28/cameron-eu-leaders-uk-control-immigration
 
I know its a separate vote, what I am saying is being cloudy with facts has happened in both votes, by all parties concerned, so people clinging onto the side of bus slogans as a reason to vote again is desperate.

I will just post a few links to some of the points.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/government-made-no-plans-brexit-7930947

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rkers-is-illegal-European-President-says.html

https://next.ft.com/content/18bf26d0-98d5-11df-9418-00144feab49a

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/28/cameron-eu-leaders-uk-control-immigration

I don't see any untruths in there. Have I missed something?? Re. "WW3" this is the quote from Camron:

"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash to make that assumption."

Hardly banding around a new world war! If there was anything misleading it was how Boris and the Leave campaign pickup and exaggerated what Cameron said.

On a day when we look back at how rash political decisions, based upon misleading information, have had massive implications on peoples lives and geo-politics, I think it is fair to say that Leave misled as much, if not more so, than Blair!
 
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So Chilcot is a whitewash, Blair lied but gets away with it. Scandalous.

I don't think it is a whitewash. From what I have read (which admittedly is not a great deal as yet), it is pretty scathing of Blair.
(From the BBC website, very high level
Tony Blair overstated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, sent ill-prepared troops into battle and had "wholly inadequate" plans for the aftermath, the UK's Iraq War inquiry has said.
Chairman Sir John Chilcot said the 2003 invasion was not the "last resort" action presented to MPs and the public.
There was no "imminent threat" from Saddam - and the intelligence case was "not justified", he said.)


Those are pretty serious findings. The question is whether anything can be done about them. There is maybe an issue with people's expectations of the inquiry. Anyone who was expecting Tony Blair to be denounced as taking the country into an illegal war was always going to be disappointed as that determination was not within Chilcot's remit.
From the Inquiry website, the terms of reference are described as :
"...It will consider the period from the summer of 2001 to the end of July 2009, embracing the run-up to the conflict in Iraq, including the way decisions were made and actions taken, to establish, as accurately as possible, what happened and to identify the lessons that can be learned. Those lessons will help ensure that, if we face similar situations in future, the government of the day is best equipped to respond to those situations in the most effective manner in the best interests of the country."
Nothing about deciding the legality of the decision to go to war in the first place.
It may open the way for some civil actions to be taken - although I imagine that would take years to complete and involve significant costs.

My comment is not on whether the war was right or wrong (my sense is that it was wrong) but rather that Blair is far, far from being exonerated - quite the opposite.
 
I don't think it is a whitewash. From what I have read (which admittedly is not a great deal as yet), it is pretty scathing of Blair.
(From the BBC website, very high level
Tony Blair overstated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, sent ill-prepared troops into battle and had "wholly inadequate" plans for the aftermath, the UK's Iraq War inquiry has said.
Chairman Sir John Chilcot said the 2003 invasion was not the "last resort" action presented to MPs and the public.
There was no "imminent threat" from Saddam - and the intelligence case was "not justified", he said.)


Those are pretty serious findings. The question is whether anything can be done about them. There is maybe an issue with people's expectations of the inquiry. Anyone who was expecting Tony Blair to be denounced as taking the country into an illegal war was always going to be disappointed as that determination was not within Chilcot's remit.
From the Inquiry website, the terms of reference are described as :
"...It will consider the period from the summer of 2001 to the end of July 2009, embracing the run-up to the conflict in Iraq, including the way decisions were made and actions taken, to establish, as accurately as possible, what happened and to identify the lessons that can be learned. Those lessons will help ensure that, if we face similar situations in future, the government of the day is best equipped to respond to those situations in the most effective manner in the best interests of the country."
Nothing about deciding the legality of the decision to go to war in the first place.
It may open the way for some civil actions to be taken - although I imagine that would take years to complete and involve significant costs.

My comment is not on whether the war was right or wrong (my sense is that it was wrong) but rather that Blair is far, far from being exonerated - quite the opposite.

indeed, the implication is very much "incompetent" rather than "in cahoots"
 
Seriously though. Of those who call the Iraq war illegal, what proportion know a single thing about any kind of law?

And what proportion are protester types that would jump on any old bandwagon that sticks it to "the man"?

In all the times this issue has been discussed on this forum only one legal expert has ever weighed in with his opinion and he came down firmly on the side of legal, without any qualification to his judgement whatsoever.

I see. And what about now?
 
Did you really expect anything other than that. But I'm content in the knowledge that although mistakes may have been made, lessons have been learnt and people acted in good faith. lol

Not really i suppose, but i hoped that ( for once) the right thing would be done. ( fool that i am).
 
Anyone who remembers the turn of events at the time will know that Blair and Bush had an intention to invade Iraq no matter what; that was the reason for the "overstated threats" along with the rush to prepare "evidence" (even Powell used what was a college student's thesis at the time in his speeches at the UN).
People in the know who had connections to the military were already talking about how military plans were being made in the summer of 2002.
Technically, it was more heavy-handed coersian of parliament and the political 'democratic process' than outright lying (although of course they really were lying) to push through a vote to give a green light go to war by the time of the actual the invasion (which as i say was pre-planned).

Anybody who actually thought all this "overstating the threat" was not the case back then was either deluded or lying to themselves
 
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