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Politics, politics, politics

I see. Tbh I'm not too bothered about the bill but I can of course understand many people having a problem with it.
For me it goes entirely against conservative principles. They should be about freedom from government and keeping their noses out of our business.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect from a Labour party that doesn't think we're capable of running our own lives, but the last thing a conservative should campaign for.

Added to which, it will never work.

I've made this argument before, but currently proper disk encryption, log-free VPNs, TOR, TAILS, etc are out of the mainstream. They only work properly when used by cautious people who know their way around computers really well. This means that your average terrorist/paedo/insert boogeyman here cannot evade police detection or evidence gathering. If you start snooping on everyone, everyone wants privacy. Once everyone wants privacy then these measures become mainstream and therefore easier to use and more difficult to break.

It a poorly thought out bill, that is wrong in both principle and execution.
 
A document was released on Monday by two EU bigwigs called Jean-Marc Ayrault (French Foreign Minister) and Frank-Walter Steinmeier (German Foreign Minister) : A strong Europe in a world of uncertainties

URL Link: http://www.voltairenet.org/article192564.html
PDF version: http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/DokumentUE-2.pdf
Some key parts of the document:

Page 1:
"France and Germany remain most firmly of the belief that the European Union pro-vides a unique and indispensable framework for the pursuit of freedom, prosperity and security in Europe, for shaping peaceful and mutually beneficial relationships amongst its people and for contributing to peace and stability in the world. Our two countries share a common destiny and a common set of values that provide the foundation for an ever closer union between our peoples. We will therefore move further towards political union in Europe and invite the other Europeans to join us in this endeavour."

Page 2:
"To deliver better, Europe must focus on today’s main challenges – ensure the security of our citizens confronted with growing external and internal threats; establish a stable cooperative framework for dealing with migration and refugee flows; boost the European economy by promoting convergence and sustainable and job-creating growth and advancing towards the completion of the Economic and Monetary Union."

Page 5:
"In the medium term, we should work towards a more integrated approach for EU internal security, based on the following measures: creation of a European plat-form for intelligence cooperation, fully respecting national prerogatives and using the current frameworks (e.g. CTG); improvement of data exchange; European contingency planning for major crisis scenarios affecting several member states; creation of a European response capability; establishment of a European civil protection corps." Is this the EU Army that @Danishfurniturelover mentioned a few days ago?

"In the longer term, it would make sense to enlarge the scope of the European public prosecutor’s office in future (currently limited to prosecuting offenses con-cerning the EU’s financial interests) to include fighting terrorism and organised crime. This would require harmonisation of criminal law among the member states."

Page 6:
"Securing our external border is no longer exclusively a national task but also a common responsibility. We are determined that the EU should establish the world’s first multinational border and coast guard. In the short term, FRONTEX will be manned by mean of secondments from member states. France and Germany should propose a joint contribution to that end. Over the medium term FRONTEX should be scaled up not only in terms of having its own permanent staff but also with adequate technical equipment to fulfil this task."

Page 7:
"To this day, our common currency constitutes the most visible and ambitious under-taking of European unification. The euro has helped protect its member states from international speculation and contributed to building a common economic area. The euro reflects our commitment to the irreversibility of European integration."


So Brexit or no Brexit, the show must go on...
 
A document was released on Monday by two EU bigwigs called Jean-Marc Ayrault (French Foreign Minister) and Frank-Walter Steinmeier (German Foreign Minister) : A strong Europe in a world of uncertainties

URL Link: http://www.voltairenet.org/article192564.html
PDF version: http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/DokumentUE-2.pdf
Some key parts of the document:

Page 1:
"France and Germany remain most firmly of the belief that the European Union pro-vides a unique and indispensable framework for the pursuit of freedom, prosperity and security in Europe, for shaping peaceful and mutually beneficial relationships amongst its people and for contributing to peace and stability in the world. Our two countries share a common destiny and a common set of values that provide the foundation for an ever closer union between our peoples. We will therefore move further towards political union in Europe and invite the other Europeans to join us in this endeavour."

Page 2:
"To deliver better, Europe must focus on today’s main challenges – ensure the security of our citizens confronted with growing external and internal threats; establish a stable cooperative framework for dealing with migration and refugee flows; boost the European economy by promoting convergence and sustainable and job-creating growth and advancing towards the completion of the Economic and Monetary Union."

Page 5:
"In the medium term, we should work towards a more integrated approach for EU internal security, based on the following measures: creation of a European plat-form for intelligence cooperation, fully respecting national prerogatives and using the current frameworks (e.g. CTG); improvement of data exchange; European contingency planning for major crisis scenarios affecting several member states; creation of a European response capability; establishment of a European civil protection corps." Is this the EU Army that @Sexagenarianlover mentioned a few days ago?

"In the longer term, it would make sense to enlarge the scope of the European public prosecutor’s office in future (currently limited to prosecuting offenses con-cerning the EU’s financial interests) to include fighting terrorism and organised crime. This would require harmonisation of criminal law among the member states."

Page 6:
"Securing our external border is no longer exclusively a national task but also a common responsibility. We are determined that the EU should establish the world’s first multinational border and coast guard. In the short term, FRONTEX will be manned by mean of secondments from member states. France and Germany should propose a joint contribution to that end. Over the medium term FRONTEX should be scaled up not only in terms of having its own permanent staff but also with adequate technical equipment to fulfil this task."

Page 7:
"To this day, our common currency constitutes the most visible and ambitious under-taking of European unification. The euro has helped protect its member states from international speculation and contributed to building a common economic area. The euro reflects our commitment to the irreversibility of European integration."


So Brexit or no Brexit, the show must go on...
That's some seriously scary stuff. I'd take a few years of financial turmoil over that any day of the week.
 
It is far too early to say what the medium and long term impact will be and concern about our economic prospects after this decision certainly haven't subsided.

We are entering a period of prolonged uncertainty and uncertainty spooks the markets. Much foreign investment into the UK will be put on hold and some jobs will move offshore. At the end of that, one possible outcome is that we have restrictions placed on our access to our biggest external market.

I get that you and the Portugeezer chose to ignore or disregard most of the warnings during the campaign but only listening to voices that support your position now is going to give you a very distorted impression of what is happening.

I am up for reading well written and thought-out views of what post-Brexit Britain may look like and how we can get there. Louise Mensch does not provide this.

Point one, you are right that is is too early to say what the medium and long term impact will be, but according to some of the scare stories spread around before and after the vote you would think we would be dead and buried already. History shows that the pound and the markets are bouncing about all the time so nothing new there.

Point two, i am not going to trawl through this thread but they have been a lot of things said ( from different sources) saying that the world is not going to end and we will not be in a mess ( Mervyn King being one) who said that there is a lot of scaremongering going on and people should not panic. So it all honesty are you not doing the same thing you are accusing us of? ie you are only listening to the voices that support your position?
 
It is far too early to say what the medium and long term impact will be and concern about our economic prospects after this decision certainly haven't subsided.

We are entering a period of prolonged uncertainty and uncertainty spooks the markets. Much foreign investment into the UK will be put on hold and some jobs will move offshore. At the end of that, one possible outcome is that we have restrictions placed on our access to our biggest external market.

I get that you and the Portugeezer chose to ignore or disregard most of the warnings during the campaign but only listening to voices that support your position now is going to give you a very distorted impression of what is happening.

I am up for reading well written and thought-out views of what post-Brexit Britain may look like and how we can get there. Louise Mensch does not provide this.
I disagree, the media is giving a distorting impression. There isn't a huge slump in the markets like it's been reported, not even at the levels we saw in the 2008 financial crisis!

 
A document was released on Monday by two EU bigwigs called Jean-Marc Ayrault (French Foreign Minister) and Frank-Walter Steinmeier (German Foreign Minister) : A strong Europe in a world of uncertainties

URL Link: http://www.voltairenet.org/article192564.html
PDF version: http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/DokumentUE-2.pdf
Some key parts of the document:

Page 1:
"France and Germany remain most firmly of the belief that the European Union pro-vides a unique and indispensable framework for the pursuit of freedom, prosperity and security in Europe, for shaping peaceful and mutually beneficial relationships amongst its people and for contributing to peace and stability in the world. Our two countries share a common destiny and a common set of values that provide the foundation for an ever closer union between our peoples. We will therefore move further towards political union in Europe and invite the other Europeans to join us in this endeavour."

Page 2:
"To deliver better, Europe must focus on today’s main challenges – ensure the security of our citizens confronted with growing external and internal threats; establish a stable cooperative framework for dealing with migration and refugee flows; boost the European economy by promoting convergence and sustainable and job-creating growth and advancing towards the completion of the Economic and Monetary Union."

Page 5:
"In the medium term, we should work towards a more integrated approach for EU internal security, based on the following measures: creation of a European plat-form for intelligence cooperation, fully respecting national prerogatives and using the current frameworks (e.g. CTG); improvement of data exchange; European contingency planning for major crisis scenarios affecting several member states; creation of a European response capability; establishment of a European civil protection corps." Is this the EU Army that @Sexagenarianlover mentioned a few days ago?

"In the longer term, it would make sense to enlarge the scope of the European public prosecutor’s office in future (currently limited to prosecuting offenses con-cerning the EU’s financial interests) to include fighting terrorism and organised crime. This would require harmonisation of criminal law among the member states."

Page 6:
"Securing our external border is no longer exclusively a national task but also a common responsibility. We are determined that the EU should establish the world’s first multinational border and coast guard. In the short term, FRONTEX will be manned by mean of secondments from member states. France and Germany should propose a joint contribution to that end. Over the medium term FRONTEX should be scaled up not only in terms of having its own permanent staff but also with adequate technical equipment to fulfil this task."

Page 7:
"To this day, our common currency constitutes the most visible and ambitious under-taking of European unification. The euro has helped protect its member states from international speculation and contributed to building a common economic area. The euro reflects our commitment to the irreversibility of European integration."


So Brexit or no Brexit, the show must go on...

This kind thinking is a bigger threat to the EU than brexit will ever be. German and French people do not, have not and never will share a common destiny or set of values.
Don't they get it yet?
 
That chart is horrific.

It's all gone selfism and very few in Britisn politics care about stuff like that any more.

We get to see the NeoLiberal Hipster Youth, blindly stand side by side with companies such as Goldman Sachs and the other people that gave us the 2008 financial crash.

The Neo Liberal Hipster Youth, pour their scorn on the indeginous old people and on the uneducated menial worker of their nation, all in favour for the internationalist globalist agenda.

You couldn't make it up, we live in topsy-turvy times. We get to see those dullurds such as, the Anti Fascist and SWP, even the Anarchists too, venting their anger on the Leave vote. Well done Soros, good work.

Not a peep from those that call themselves democratic socialist, regarding the destruction of the hopes, of large swathes of young people across Europe, due to the monerterist policies of the undemocratic Imperial Superstate, whilst their envious eyes fixated on the pensions of Mr and Mrs Kinnock.

Worrying times.
 
So Boris pulls out because Gove stepped in it seems.

Fox wouldn't be a bad choice but those same disgusting arseholes in the press who went for him last time would do so again.
 
I think we have to understand that the UK Brexit vote is NOT what the EU Powers that be wanted on so many levels, least of all encouraging other States to think about exiting the EU and making the planned Political Union of Europe harder.
It has to be expected that the Powers that be that have a vested interest in the creation of the European Superstate will indeed punish us here in the UK for it to:

a) show others "don't f with the EU"
b) cause a re-vote to stay in, or push a new PM to NOT enact article 50 and keep UK in the EU

It is likely that in the time between now and whenever a PM eventually beings the process of enacting article 50 that the Economic punishment will come.
There was a discussion i heard from someone who used to work for the US treasury as well as several Academic roles that aid that the Federal Reserve, EU Bank and Bank of Japan will likely club together to manipulate currency stocks in such a way that the value of the pound plummets.
This would be then be used to push for an even greater uproar and a case for the next PM to get the UK back in the EU.
I'll see if i can find that again as the person very much tread into some fascinating Geopolitical theory on top of this.

So @milo , @The Portugeezer , @parklane1 and others it's too early to say one way or another that Brexit has not effected the markets, but it is inevitable that there will be some attempt at waging Economic warfare on the UK to get us back into the EU.

So probably it's time for us all to hold on to your hats; the powers that be will NOT take this democratic vote lightly!
 
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