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Politics, politics, politics

glasgowspur said:
With the voting public having gone from apathy to some semblance of decent participation numbers I think I prefer the apathy.
The amount of people walking about proud of themselves because they've "given the politicians a bloody nose" is amazing. Maybe if you had exercised your vote in the past the politicians wouldn't have needed a bloody nose. By not voting you have given them the mandate for doing what they want.

I've watched two referendums tear the country apart in the last two years for nothing but vague, empty unfulfillable promises.
With little fact to back up either side they have been nothing but a choice between scare tactics or too good to be true options. Surely we can do and should demand better than this.

Oh and one more thing, where is this Scotland that you keep pontificating about from the moral high ground Ms Sturgeon?
Show me this all welcoming (unless your Catholic or Protestant depending on preference)Scotland , these warm Scots extending their hands to everyone, unless you're English if course.

Rant over, I feel better now.
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I'm half Scot myself, I think it is a welcoming country, I have many friends, family and colleagues there so visit Edinburgh and Glasgow regularly.

It obviously has its areas of deprivation where attitudes are maybe more inward looking, but that's true of everywhere.

The Scots are seen as a far friendlier bunch than the English around the world imo.
 
galeforce said:
I'm half Scot myself, I think it is a welcoming country, I have many friends, family and colleagues there so visit Edinburgh and Glasgow regularly.

It obviously has its areas of deprivation where attitudes are maybe more inward looking, but that's true of everywhere.

The Scots are seen as a far friendlier bunch than the English around the world imo.
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When abroad we always emphasise we are scots, not English, generally the English aren't well liked. Not a view I share, we have friends all over England. We visit England 3 or 4 times a year and have travelled through France, Holland, Germany, Belgium and Italy and can't honestly say that there is any real difference to attitudes about foreigners. Some people are welcoming, some are not. And Scotland is the same, it's isn't some utopia where race, creed, colour or gender orientation isn't an issue. Frankly it's becoming embarrassing to keep trotting out these myths that are designed to do nothing more than paint another country in a poor light.
 
glasgowspur said:
When abroad we always emphasise we are scots, not English, generally the English aren't well liked. Not a view I share, we have friends all over England. We visit England 3 or 4 times a year and have travelled through France, Holland, Germany, Belgium and Italy and can't honestly say that there is any real difference to attitudes about foreigners. Some people are welcoming, some are not. And Scotland is the same, it's isn't some utopia where race, creed, colour or gender orientation isn't an issue. Frankly it's becoming embarrassing to keep trotting out these myths that are designed to do nothing more than paint another country in a poor light.
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I agree, i have been lucky enough to have lived and worked in several places and people are basicaly the same where ever you go. There are arseholes and they are good people everywhere and to brand one country better then another on the basis of how you are treated by some is wrong. ( imo).
 
Glenda's Legs said:
Watching the news coverage of yesterday's events in Brussels one thing was abundantly clear (though not necessarily unknown) - what a total d*ck Nigel Farage is. Arrogant crowing and insults were not what was needed. Fortunately he is not part of our government so I trust he will be kept a million miles away from our negotiations.
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Part of me would love for him to be part of the negotiations with the EU. We could then see when he has to put his money where his mouth is if there is more to this man than boorish rhetoric. Then I am reminded that Paul Hindenburg made Hitler chancellor in the 1930s to try and control him- look how that turned out.
 
I assume, that should brexit go ahead as suggested, UKIP will close down right, they have what they have been fighting for...
 
the dza said:
I'll be voting for him again, against whatever 'inspirational' figure that the PLP put up. They've been out for him from the beginning, pure opportunism to try and turn the referendum result against him.

Let the PLP put up a candidate and let's get on with it and get the votes done and counted.
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Absolute madness in my opinion. He is completely unelectable. It does not matter what you believe, you are powerless to do anything about it if you cannot get into office.

I also think that he has surrounded himself with some pretty nasty people, with some pretty nasty views.
 
milo said:
Absolute madness in my opinion. He is completely unelectable. It does not matter what you believe, you are powerless to do anything about it if you cannot get into office.

I also think that he has surrounded himself with some pretty nasty people, with some pretty nasty views.
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You are entitled to your opinion. For me, it's about having a proper alternative. I have no interest in gifting a career to a Tory in a red rosette whose only appeal is that they aren't quite as bad as the real deal. Eventually, the country will throw out the Tories and put in the opposition, who will be Labour. When that happens, I don't want a Blair clone picking up the baton.

If there is enough strength of feeling in the other direction, then Corbyn will lose a leadership contest.
 
the dza said:
You are entitled to your opinion. For me, it's about having a proper alternative. I have no interest in gifting a career to a Tory in a red rosette whose only appeal is that they aren't quite as bad as the real deal. Eventually, the country will throw out the Tories and put in the opposition, who will be Labour. When that happens, I don't want a Blair clone picking up the baton.

If there is enough strength of feeling in the other direction, then Corbyn will lose a leadership contest.
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Corbyn's biggest problem (even more than his smugness and the fact that he looks like a vegetarian Prius driver who does 68 in the fast lane) is that he's fighting a fight that's no longer there to be fought.

It was lost comprehensively 40 years ago. The country sees it, the developed world sees it, Corbyn and his band of merry terrorist sympathisers don't. You may not like Blair and his type, but he's now the left wing of politics.
 
the dza said:
You are entitled to your opinion. For me, it's about having a proper alternative. I have no interest in gifting a career to a Tory in a red rosette whose only appeal is that they aren't quite as bad as the real deal. Eventually, the country will throw out the Tories and put in the opposition, who will be Labour. When that happens, I don't want a Blair clone picking up the baton.

If there is enough strength of feeling in the other direction, then Corbyn will lose a leadership contest.
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I think that the red Tory stuff insult is a load of gonads.

Under our electoral system, you need a working majority in the commons to see through a programme and to do that you need to appeal to the middle ground. Politics is about compromise and those that cannot compromise end up sitting on the sidelines whilst others' implement their policies. I think that there are some in the Corbyn camp who would rather stick to their principles and never be in power, than compromise and be in with a shout.

I also think that modern politics, whether we like it or not is about presentation, Corbyn finds it impossible to be succinct which means that his message gets lost. I can understand that, he is used to making detailed policy speeches to sympathetic audiences but being the leader of a major party requires a different skill and he does not have it.

Lastly, the antisemitism and bullying within Momentum is poisonous and Corbyn has done a little or nothing to address this. It is nasty and stands against everything that the Labour party should be for.
 
milo said:
I think that the red Tory stuff insult is a load of cobblers.

Under our electoral system, you need a working majority in the commons to see through a programme and to do that you need to appeal to the middle ground. Politics is about compromise and those that cannot compromise end up sitting on the sidelines whilst others' implement their policies. I think that there are some in the Corbyn camp who would rather stick to their principles and never be in power, than compromise and be in with a shout.

I also think that modern politics, whether we like it or not is about presentation, Corbyn finds it impossible to be succinct which means that his message gets lost. I can understand that, he is used to making detailed policy speeches to sympathetic audiences but being the leader of a major party requires a different skill and he does not have it.

Lastly, the antisemitism and bullying within Momentum is poisonous and Corbyn has done a little or nothing to address this. It is nasty and stands against everything that the Labour party should be for.
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Re. Anti-Semitism, what is Corbyn supposed to do aside denounce it (which he does) and suspend people in the Labour Party that make those kind of remarks (again, this is what happens)? Momentum supports Corbyn but he doesn't control it fully because you don't have to be a member of the Labour Party to get involved in it. To smear Corbyn with this is nonsense beyond belief, he has done more to stick up for minorities than the likes of David Cameron ever will.

Modern politics can be all about style over substance, if that's what you choose. Others want different policies, hence the vote for Corbyn, the popularity of Sanders, even if he couldn't beat the Clinton electoral machine. If people just shrug their shoulders and say "well, that's the way it is" then nothing can ever change.

There are an assortment of right-wingers and centrists you can vote for, you can even join the Labour Party if you wish and make it happen, get a Blairite elected as leader if you feel strongly enough. Nobody is stopping you. But please don't suppose to tell those of us who want an alternative who we should vote for. I'm well aware of all the points you make, but I and many others are fed up of politics as usual. All of the 'electable' Labour leadership candidates think in the sort of way that has seen the party crushed in Scotland. Corbyn may be the answer, he may not -- but the answer certainly isn't Cooper/Kendall/Burnham or Eagle. They will all lose against Johnson playing the presentation game.

For me, it is not simply about Corbyn and the next election. It is about the direction of the party and wider politics, and offering a clear choice and alternative. Scara just posted that Blair is where the left of politics is now. That's simply not enough of an alternative to what the Tory party offers, but make no mistake, it is what the likes of Mandelson are hell-bent on delivering for the Labour Party. As Thatcher said, her greatest achievement was New Labour. Time for the pendulum to swing back the other way.
 
the dza said:
Re. Anti-Semitism, what is Corbyn supposed to do aside denounce it (which he does) and suspend people in the Labour Party that make those kind of remarks (again, this is what happens)? Momentum supports Corbyn but he doesn't control it fully because you don't have to be a member of the Labour Party to get involved in it. To smear Corbyn with this is nonsense beyond belief, he has done more to stick up for minorities than the likes of David Cameron ever will.

Modern politics can be all about style over substance, if that's what you choose. Others want different policies, hence the vote for Corbyn, the popularity of Sanders, even if he couldn't beat the Clinton electoral machine. If people just shrug their shoulders and say "well, that's the way it is" then nothing can ever change.

There are an assortment of right-wingers and centrists you can vote for, you can even join the Labour Party if you wish and make it happen, get a Blairite elected as leader if you feel strongly enough. Nobody is stopping you. But please don't suppose to tell those of us who want an alternative who we should vote for. I'm well aware of all the points you make, but I and many others are fed up of politics as usual. All of the 'electable' Labour leadership candidates think in the sort of way that has seen the party crushed in Scotland. Corbyn may be the answer, he may not -- but the answer certainly isn't Cooper/Kendall/Burnham or Eagle. They will all lose against Johnson playing the presentation game.

For me, it is not simply about Corbyn and the next election. It is about the direction of the party and wider politics, and offering a clear choice and alternative. Scara just posted that Blair is where the left of politics is now. That's simply not enough of an alternative to what the Tory party offers, but make no mistake, it is what the likes of Mandelson are hell-bent on delivering for the Labour Party. As Thatcher said, her greatest achievement was New Labour. Time for the pendulum to swing back the other way.
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Corbyn could and should have denounced the antisemitism sooner and with more conviction. I am not trying to smear Corbyn, I am judging him on his actions and he fell short here.

I don't think that this is a different type of politics, Labour tried this before in the 80's and I think that it would have the same result this time.

I don't believe that the choice is between Tony Blair and Jeremy Corbyn, there is a whole spectrum of views in the Labour party. But I think that any leader, of any party, who cannot deliver a simple, clear message and is unable to appeal to the centre ground, is doomed to failure.

Labour did not lose Scotland because they had a right wing leader, Miliband was hardly that. It lost Scotland as a result of the referendum and because Cameron back tracked on the deal immediately after the result was known. Corbyn has hardly been able to reverse that trend so far.

For me it is about winning the next election and doing something about inequality in this country. This country needs an effective opposition and a Labour party that is a viable government in waiting when the next election comes. It will never be either whilst Corbyn is leader.
 
milo said:
Corbyn could and should have denounced the antisemitism sooner and with more conviction. I am not trying to smear Corbyn, I am judging him on his actions and he fell short here.

I don't think that this is a different type of politics, Labour tried this before in the 80's and I think that it would have the same result this time.

I don't believe that the choice is between Tony Blair and Jeremy Corbyn, there is a whole spectrum of views in the Labour party. But I think that any leader, of any party, who cannot deliver a simple, clear message and is unable to appeal to the centre ground, is doomed to failure.

Labour did not lose Scotland because they had a right wing leader, Miliband was hardly that. It lost Scotland as a result of the referendum and because Cameron back tracked on the deal immediately after the result was known. Corbyn has hardly been able to reverse that trend so far.

For me it is about winning the next election and doing something about inequality in this country. This country needs an effective opposition and a Labour party that is a viable government in waiting when the next election comes. It will never be either whilst Corbyn is leader.
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Labour had a Blairite leader in Scotland, Jim Murphy. They have another one now in Dugdale. The SNP provided the change that Labour didn't, at least that's the perception. People who voted to stay in the UK still went and changed their vote from Labour to SNP in the general election.

And since the inception of New Labour, only the Blairite view has been allowed a voice. Who do you think Labour can put forward as a candidate to beat Boris Johnson and be an effective opposition? Turf out Corbyn and appoint Angela Eagle as leader, then everything will be fine. That's just not going to happen.

Like I said, if you feel strongly enough about it, then go with your convictions and make something happen -- because this is what the Labour membership did when voting for Corbyn. They got new members like me to vote for him, but don't forget, Corbyn would have won the leadership if the votes were only from those who were members prior to the leadership contest.
 
the dza said:
Labour had a Blairite leader in Scotland, Jim Murphy. They have another one now in Dugdale. The SNP provided the change that Labour didn't, at least that's the perception. People who voted to stay in the UK still went and changed their vote from Labour to SNP in the general election.

And since the inception of New Labour, only the Blairite view has been allowed a voice. Who do you think Labour can put forward as a candidate to beat Boris Johnson and be an effective opposition? Turf out Corbyn and appoint Angela Eagle as leader, then everything will be fine. That's just not going to happen.

Like I said, if you feel strongly enough about it, then go with your convictions and make something happen -- because this is what the Labour membership did when voting for Corbyn. They got new members like me to vote for him, but don't forget, Corbyn would have won the leadership if the votes were only from those who were members prior to the leadership contest.
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I don't think that Johnson (or May, Crabb, Fox, Hunt...) will win the next election. Implementing Brexit and keeping people everyone happy is going nigh on impossible. I think that Labour has a chance if it stands on a Remain ticket if there is an election on the Brexit deal but Corbyn would be unable to do that.
 
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