Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

Ok I ask you, if they do that and it causes huge problems for people of this country on a basic daily level that they are completely p!ssed off with the conservatives and their policies, what do you think will happen?

Well firstly, voting, political feeling, they are not rational. Its about what you feel, not logic. And democracy is to quote Churchill "a bad system, but the least bad anyone has come up with so far."

So who knows what will happen. We have left a world where we knew more or less what would happen, and have no national leader for the future, and no idea of how we will trade, or whether the UK will even exist. To answer your question, I have no idea.

 

[Eriktheviking]

Ok I ask you, if they do that and it causes huge problems for people of this country on a basic daily level that they are completely p!ssed off with the conservatives and their policies, what do you think will happen?

Thats not the point @SpurMeUp was making. Issues such as working time directive were govern by the EU and couldnt be touched by our government. Much to their annoyance. Now workers have less protection. As far as i am aware, as we will no longer have to implement EU legislation any UK Government can take Policy designed to protect workers away from them. Leaving the EU may mean millions of lower wage and lower skilled workers rights lose out big time in terms of working conditions.

Generalising here but those who voted to leave for a "better Britain" could end up getting royally fudged. I for one can't wait if they do.

 

[indianspur]

If anything leaving the EU will worsen things for many of those that voted leave. It is wholly unfair, and no one wins.

How do you know things will be worse off for those that voted to leave?

 

[Eriktheviking]

How do you know things will be worse off for those that voted to leave?

Because in general, those who voted to leave are in the less skilled and lower paid jobs. Those jobs have less protection in terms of woking conditions and are more susceptible to changes in policy concerning wages as they are in a hand to mouth situation in terms of pay.

People at this end of the spectrum are always the most susceptible to changes in government policy.

 

[indianspur]

Generalising here but those who voted to leave for a "better Britain" could end up getting royally fudgeed. I for one can't wait if they do.

Because in general, those who voted to leave are in the less skilled and lower paid jobs. Those jobs have less protection in terms of woking conditions and are more susceptible to changes in policy concerning wages as they are in a hand to mouth situation in terms of pay.

People at this end of the spectrum are always the most susceptible to changes in government policy.

Maybe those who voted to leave are actually unemployed and with no hope of employment so those fantastic and great employment laws have no benefit to them.

And surely those already in less skilled and lower paid jobs would have voted to remain? As you say the EU did them a huge favour with the employment laws and policies?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Thats not the point @SpurMeUp was making. Issues such as working time directive were govern by the EU and couldnt be touched by our government. Much to their annoyance. Now workers have less protection. As far as i am aware, as we will no longer have to implement EU legislation any UK Government can take Policy designed to protect workers away from them. Leaving the EU may mean millions of lower wage and lower skilled workers rights lose out big time in terms of working conditions.

Generalising here but those who voted to leave for a "better Britain" could end up getting royally fudgeed. I for one can't wait if they do.

What a fudging brick and bitter attitude you have!
Because many people in the country didn't vote the way you clearly seemed to want you want them royally fudged??

What if some of those people feel 'royally fudged' already?
What if some who voted leave are not "stupid and uneducated"? Would you describe those who voted Leave some of the expensive leafy home counties as "stupid and uneducated"? Things are no so black and white on this issue and it would help if people are prepared to understand and see things in a more subtle nuanced way. Black and white descriptions are what lazy or agenda-driven media esp on Twitter/Facebook prefer as they don't have to work as hard.

The main thing is that if the national government royally fudges them, they can vote them out for another government that seems to be able to get better conditions for them. It's called national democracy and sovereignty.
Who's to say the European Superstate will always be on the side of workers and their rights? What if the Superstate becomes more right wing further down the line? What then? Vote them out? Yeah sure...

All this talk about how a sovereign Government can never be lobbied/pressured by its electorate to implement fair rights for its citizens shows how peasant minded some people really are. It's as if Europe gave women the vote (and not a UK Government) all those years ago

 

[indianspur]

What a fudgeing brick and bitter attitude you have!
Because many people in the country didn't vote the way you clearly seemed to want you want them royally fudgeed??

What if some of those people feel 'royally fudgeed' already?
What if some who voted leave are not "stupid and uneducated"? Would you describe those who voted Leave some of the expensive leafy home counties as "stupid and uneducated"? Things are no so black and white on this issue and it would help if people are prepared to understand and see things in a more subtle nuanced way. Black and white descriptions are what lazy or agenda-driven media esp on Twitter/Facebook prefer as they don't have to work as hard.

The main thing is that if the national government royally fudges them, they can vote them out for another government that seems to be able to get better conditions for them. It's called national democracy and sovereignty.
Who's to say the European Superstate will always be on the side of workers and their rights? What if the Superstate becomes more right wing further down the line? What then? Vote them out? Yeah sure...

All this talk about how a sovereign Government can never be lobbied/pressured by its electorate to implement fair rights for its citizens shows how peasant minded some people really are. It's as if Europe gave women the vote (and not a UK Government) all those years ago

Absolutely agree with everything you say.

 

[Eriktheviking]

What a fudgeing brick and bitter attitude you have!
Because many people in the country didn't vote the way you clearly seemed to want you want them royally fudgeed??

What if some of those people feel 'royally fudgeed' already?
What if some who voted leave are not "stupid and uneducated"? Would you describe those who voted Leave some of the expensive leafy home counties as "stupid and uneducated"? Things are no so black and white on this issue and it would help if people are prepared to understand and see things in a more subtle nuanced way. Black and white descriptions are what lazy or agenda-driven media esp on Twitter/Facebook prefer as they don't have to work as hard.

The main thing is that if the national government royally fudges them, they can vote them out for another government that seems to be able to get better conditions for them. It's called national democracy and sovereignty.
Who's to say the European Superstate will always be on the side of workers and their rights? What if the Superstate becomes more right wing further down the line? What then? Vote them out? Yeah sure...

All this talk about how a sovereign Government can never be lobbied/pressured by its electorate to implement fair rights for its citizens shows how peasant minded some people really are. It's as if Europe gave women the vote (and not a UK Government) all those years ago

I did say i was generalising but on the whole yes. As someone who grew up on a council estate in a single parent household with fudge all money and not being academically gifted i worked my way out with graft. i did my years on minimum wage in brick jobs working all the hours of the day. I get into Uni, i got a degree and a masters degree. On completion i still had no job chances. I still worked a low wage job etc with little hope of employment in my field.

Today i work a very good wage, it took me 6 years of graft after uni to get where i am. I am now in a position to bring a kid into the world and get married.

So don't give me the attitude.

If i can do it, why can't most others? IMHO it laziness, its a brick work ethic, its the mainframe of people. Always happy to blame others.

This leave campaign was won on racism, simple as. People blaming others for taking their jobs... who's jobs? you have no right to expect a highly paid job in this country. You earn it. You find a way to get a job and you earn you way out of poverty. This attitude is not the fault of the EU.

If you voted out because of a "bring Britain back" or get rid of the immigrants reasons you will get everything that is coming to you.

 

[SpurMeUp]

How do you know things will be worse off for those that voted to leave?

We don't. But when there is say recession, its those from lower socio-economic backgrounds that take the hit. The rich, they float above it in a special economy of their own. Bankers can even feast using the wild currency swings to make more money not less. But a lower pound has the implication of less government taxation revenue - less money coming in to spend on social services, housing etc - and means things in the shops, or holidays will cost more. It won't affect the rich as much.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I am all for revolution. Just half the voting British people choose a 'safe' revolt, or so they thought. In other words (imo) the wrong revolution. Inequality, the voices of the unrepresented, the same old same old political classes, the bankers who sneeze and make a million, the nurses who don't get pay rises, the schools with no places even though you were born next door.

Something needs to change. Europe was the easy target. When we should have been taking it to our government. National governments need to change and have been slow to see what is happening globally - Trump, UKIP, SNP, LePen. In fact they, existing career politicians, see it, but don't know what to do. That is the real issue, the EU has taken the blame, but its not a revolution or evolution of national politics which is what is needed (imo).

 

[glorygloryeze]

I did say i was generalising but on the whole yes. As someone who grew up on a council estate in a single parent household with fudge all money and not being academically gifted i worked my way out with graft. i did my years on minimum wage in brick jobs working all the hours of the day. I get into Uni, i got a degree and a masters degree. On completion i still had no job chances. I still worked a low wage job etc with little hope of employment in my field.

Today i work a very good wage, it took me 6 years of graft after uni to get where i am. I am now in a position to bring a kid into the world and get married.

So don't give me the attitude.

If i can do it, why can't most others? IMHO it laziness, its a brick work ethic, its the mainframe of people. Always happy to blame others.

This leave campaign was won on racism, simple as. People blaming others for taking their jobs... who's jobs? you have no right to expect a highly paid job in this country. You earn it. You find a way to get a job and you earn you way out of poverty. This attitude is not the fault of the EU.

Well, if you give attitude (let them all get fudged) you have to expect to receive similar.

You worked hard to get to the top. Good for you. Many people have and will continue to do so.

Again the 'lazy work ethic' is largely irrelevant: Some want to work in a country where their government is accountable to them and NOT dictated to by an outside Superstate that is unelected. A government that hasn't got a lazy get-out excuse when it c0cks up of "it's to do with Europe."
It's mostly as simple as that.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I did say i was generalising but on the whole yes. As someone who grew up on a council estate in a single parent household with fudge all money and not being academically gifted i worked my way out with graft. i did my years on minimum wage in brick jobs working all the hours of the day. I get into Uni, i got a degree and a masters degree. On completion i still had no job chances. I still worked a low wage job etc with little hope of employment in my field.

Today i work a very good wage, it took me 6 years of graft after uni to get where i am. I am now in a position to bring a kid into the world and get married.

So don't give me the attitude.

If i can do it, why can't most others? IMHO it laziness, its a brick work ethic, its the mainframe of people. Always happy to blame others.

This leave campaign was won on racism, simple as. People blaming others for taking their jobs... who's jobs? you have no right to expect a highly paid job in this country. You earn it. You find a way to get a job and you earn you way out of poverty. This attitude is not the fault of the EU.

If you voted out because of a "bring Britain back" or get rid of the immigrants reasons you will get everything that is coming to you.

Does that include the Eton boys who either work for daddy or one of his pals?

 

[Eriktheviking]

Well, if you give attitude (let them all get fudgeed) you have to expect to receive similar.

You worked hard to get to the top. Good for you. Many people have and will continue to do so.

Again the 'lazy work ethic' is largely irrelevant: Some want to work in a country where their government is accountable to them and NOT dictated to by an outside Superstate that is unelected. A government that hasn't got a lazy get-out excuse when it c0cks up of "it's to do with Europe."
It's mostly as simple as that.

Can you give me 5 examples of things our Government has/had absolutely no control over and has fudged this population over?

 

[Grays_1890]

Can you give me 5 examples of things our Government has/had absolutely no control over and has fudgeed this population over?

I will start with three:

- Net immigration target of under 100,000
- Imposed fishing quotas on UK fishermen grants equal access to other European fishing fleets to the UK 200-mile zone around the UK coastline
- European Convention Human Rights = in some cases a perceived lack of power in such cases as the complicated the extradition of Abu Qatada, who was deported to Jordan in 2013, but only after clearing hurdles set by the European courts

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Do agree. It was funny how overnight, even on Thursday evening, you could see Boris' stock falling. Images of him in papers changed, and he went from friendly and engaging, to villain.

Cameron's stock couldn't be higher despite his errors. Cameron wasn't backed up by others (another of his failings maybe). Not only his trusted political friends - Gove, Borris, Hane - but by Labour and others like Teresa May in the Conservatives who took a back seat and left it all to Cameron and Osbourne. Was essentially these two against Boris, Gove, and UKIP. No one thought we would ultimately leave, and they didn't get too involved. These people also carry the blame in my opinion, as do the press.

Seemingly completely un-criticised, much of the press has overnight turned tail. Reading the Daily Mail this morning, you'd never have guessed they were pro-Brexit. Its astonishing. The Times even more so. From the Sunday Times coming out for Brexit, a day or so later, they are full of stories on the UKs perils in a Brexit world. But there are no stories like "Press leads People into a Blind Alley over Europe" of course.

The press has chipped away at the EU for decades. Stories about bananas actually pretty funny and good to read (as opposed to the boring functional reality of the EU which is far from interesting). Combining superficial disdain for johnny foreigner and a sense of external control of our Great Britain, they were onto a winner. Now suddenly, overnight, there's a shift, no one external to blame anymore. Instead they are facing up to the post-Brexit mess that many predicted; but not the right wing press. Why not? And how do they continue talking about the malaise in the UK now, without once referring to their own papers contradictory approach and their role in helping to bring about a Leave vote?

Stop reading the papers @SpurMeUp, it's doing you no favours.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Can you give me 5 examples of things our Government has/had absolutely no control over and has fudgeed this population over?

Well there are examples of how the European Courts of Justice has overruled or attempted to overule our Government's law; irrespective of whether many in the UK agreed/wanted that law, it is for the citizens in the UK to use the usual channels to challenge it.

- The snoopers charter, being possibly overruled by the European Courts of Justice (ECJ): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-to-consider-legality-of-uk-surveillance-laws. Let me say now that i don't beleive and support the proposed surveillance laws, but it's for UK bodies/MPs/People to challenge it and NOT the ECJ

- uncontrolled Migration for the EU - this is obviously to do with the trading zone agreements; migration of workers is needed but uncontrolled from the EU (whilst controlled from non-EU countries where they have to jump through a lot of hoops) has led to some lop-sided problems in some areas regarding housing, integration etc. Again, a sovereign Govt should be in control of migration from ALL countries imo

- The push towards Fiscal Union, Financial Union AND Political Union as outlined by by the EC themselves last year: https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/pub...leting-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en (full doc here: https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf).
It is stated to start in the Eurozone, but via osmosis will obviously effect all the EU. A United States of Europe is loss of control and a one-size-fits-all will be undemocratic and inevitable fudge over the population.

Apparently these "5 presidents" are nothing more than "jumped up civil servants".
Firstly, who heard of Civil Servants with the titles of "President" and secondly, when did a trading bloc evolve to need a 'Civil Service', a Courts of Justice, a Commission and a Parliament? Of course it was when it became a slowly evolving Superstate.

The people weren't asked to vote on that. Well they have now and have said No.

 

[Eriktheviking]

I will start with three:

- Net immigration target of under 100,000
- Imposed fishing quotas on UK fishermen grants equal access to other European fishing fleets to the UK 200-mile zone around the UK coastline
- European Convention Human Rights = in some cases a perceived lack of power in such cases as the complicated the extradition of Abu Qatada, who was deported to Jordan in 2013, but only after clearing hurdles set by the European courts

They are issues that being part of the EU has brought, I fail to see how fishing quotas and human rights have fudged this country though...

Immigration? Well that has supported out basic industries such as farming and hospitality. Unemployment figures show immigration has not had that much of am impact as we were in full employment some months ago.

 

[Grays_1890]

I woke up this morning to read that Remain believe they have a case for a re-vote based on false pledges by remain, its so laughable its untrue.

If there was a case of re-votes based on false pledges the Conservatives would have been out already since last years election.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Ha poor old Bozo Boris looks like the dog that has caught the car and now doesn't know what to do with it. Anyway what about Article 50, no one has mentioned this yet? Has Cameron left his Brexit Tory 'mates' a huge brick sandwich to munch on with this or what?

 

[Eriktheviking]

Well there are examples of how the European Courts of Justice has overruled or attempted to overule our Government's law; irrespective of whether many in the UK agreed/wanted that law, it is for the citizens in the UK to use the usual channels to challenge it.

- The snoopers charter, being possibly overruled by the European Courts of Justice (ECJ): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-to-consider-legality-of-uk-surveillance-laws. Let me say now that i don't beleive and support the proposed surveillance laws, but it's for UK bodies/MPs/People to challenge it and NOT the ECJ

- uncontrolled Migration for the EU - this is obviously to do with the trading zone agreements; migration of workers is needed but uncontrolled from the EU (whilst controlled from non-EU countries where they have to jump through a lot of hoops) has led to some lop-sided problems in some areas regarding housing, integration etc. Again, a sovereign Govt should be in control of migration for ALL areas imo

- The push towards Fiscal Union, Financial Union AND Political Union as outlined by by the EC themselves last year: https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/pub...leting-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en (full doc here: https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf).
It is stated to start in the Eurozone, but via osmosis will obviously effect all the EU. A United States of Europe is loss of control and a one-size-fits-all will be undemocratic and inevitable fudge over the population.

Apparently these "5 presidents" are nothing more than "jumped up civil servants".
Firstly, who heard of Civil Servants with the titles of "President" and secondly, when did a trading bloc evolve to need a 'Civil Service', a Courts of Justice, a Commission and a Parliament? Of course it was when it became a slowly evolving Superstate.

The people weren't asked to vote on that. Well they have now and have said No.

I don't believe you gave shown how the above has fudged the UK up...

These are merely things you don't agree with, which is fine, rather than catastrophic policies contributing to the apparent demise of the UK