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Politics, politics, politics

Britain is in a hell of a lot of trouble, if it has to rely on Boris Johnson for leadership. Apart from getting his photo in the newspaper what else has this fudgestick ever done? Policy development, causes etc.? He stands for nothing, apart from his own self interest. Check out this face in the above photo. He knows that people will actually expect him to do some real work for a change...something he has never had to do in his life.
 
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boris-john...x-national-disaster-hes-bequeathed-us-1567413

I have to say I agree with almost all of it. The tone is bitter. But that is because the author believes its a seismic mistake to Leave. As things stand I concur, and hope we have a general election. How can the referendum be Democratic if people didn't know what they were voting for? We still don't know what Leave means![/QUOTE]

And this is my problem with the whole process. I voted to remain based on nothing more than the leave campaign didn't even have a manifesto or plan. It was madness; its like selling your house and not even deciding where your next move will be and having no place to stay sorted.

If there was even a half decent plan i may have gone along with it and voted leave. I think it will take 5/10 years for us to leave the EU. That is 5/10 years of economic instability.

Personally my guess is that we will remain in the EU under some sort of negotiated deal. A bit like Norway. Most of the benefits but none of the decision making influence.

I think Cameron has to take a lot of the blame for this result, he sat there in his ivory tower thinking he could not possibly lose and did not have a decent remain campaign. Even if he carried out a half arsed, well reasoned campaign he would have walked it.

Lesson = ignore the uneducated and working class at your peril!
 
Is this pish?

Well, Michael Gove was right about the experts being wrong. They totally underestimated the extent of the disaster that Brexit would unleash. It is perhaps why he and his partner in crime Boris Johnson looked like they were at the funeral of their old friend yesterday, not a celebration of one of the most remarkable and truly historic campaign victories of our time.

So let's look at some of the things we on the Remain side said would happen, and which were all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear.

Virtually every major economic voice in the world warned there would be an immediate plunge in the value of the pound, investors would start to pull out, and the Bank of England would have to step in. As the pound charts began to resemble a modern graphic of the white cliffs of Dover, no wonder Gove and Johnson looked sick. The vote had wiped out more money than we had paid into the EU in the last 15 years. Brilliant. They took back control of economic madness.

The economic shrinkage that is now on the way means that far from their claim (aka lie) about more money from the NHS being delivered by Brexit, public services will now see their budgets cut. And in any event, Johnson's fellow campaigner Nigel Farage has already dumped the NHS pledge, just as Daniel Hannan MEP has begun to walk away from the pledge to stop free movement.

Dover, by the way − that is where the border with France is moving to now. That was Project Fear too. Of course the French would continue to look after our borders − said LEAVE. It's in their interests too, innit, stands to reason, common sense? The French authorities are already calling for the Treaty of Le Touquet to be renegotiated. It is going to happen.

Then there is the hard Irish border which is already on the agenda − that was never going to happen− said LEAVE. Well the logic of ending free movement of people means it has to happen. You cannot be out of the single market and not have controls at border points. Impossible. One of those inconvenient truths that had no place in the wretched, dumbed down, post-intelligence debate we have had, where brainy Oxbridge politicians link up with the right-wing tax dodgers, foreigners, liars and pornographers who own most of our national press and are today enjoying the benefits of years of lying about Europe and hate-stirring against immigrants. The power-crazed Murdochs and sociopathic Dacres of this world are all too easy to despise. But it was politicians Johnson, Gove and Farage who managed to turn the lies and the myths into a campaign that persuaded millions of people to go their way.

Then there is Scotland, and our warnings that a Brexit vote would lead to the break-up of the Union. Scaremongering. No way would the Scots go for a second referendum with the oil price so low. Well as we have seen in recent days sometimes emotion can top economics. Added to which I for one would much rather live in the Scotland Nicola Sturgeon described yesterday than the England of Johnson and Farage. Scotland will get a second referendum. And the Union is likely to break. And many of those English people who voted for Brexit will say "oh well, who needs them?" Like they have been saying who needs the EU, and singing their xenophobic songs about it at the football in France. They are beginning to get their answer.

This referendum has been a bigger story around the world than any event in Britain since the death of Princess Diana. The consequences are obviously far, far greater. Most of the rest of the world is looking on with a mix of bemusement and concern. The exceptions are Isis, who welcomed the decision (and those of us who said they would were attacked for even suggesting they might), Donald Trump, who dropped into the cartoon yesterday to insult the Prime Minister and our intelligence, and Vladimir Putin, who is rejoicing in seeing Europe destabilised without him needing to lift a finger. As an American friend emailed me yesterday "at least we can now begin to lose our reputation as the most stupid country in the world".

To watch and hear the vox pops of some of my fellow Brits expressing buyers' remorse yesterday was to want to weep. "I only voted LEAVE because everyone said REMAIN was winning."

Another said: "I didn't realise it would actually mean we left. All my family are really sad today. We want to go and vote again."

"I thought they were just trying to scare us when they said the pound would fall."

And: "I voted by post and now I wished I hadn't."

There were also the ones celebrating because they imagined the lies they had been told were actually going to happen. "We'll be able to build a new hospital every week."; "The immigrants will have to go home now."; "We've got our country back." Well you wait and just see what kind of country this will create.

brexit.jpg

Britain's national press react to the BrexitGetty
There was the lifelong Tory, the man who said he liked and admired David Cameron, who couldn't believe the Prime Minister was resigning. He had breathed in the warm words of admiration of the LEAVE Tories that they wanted Cameron to stay. And do their dirty work. If Cameron was as ruthless, nasty and narcissistic as Johnson, he would ask him to be Chancellor and Gove to be Foreign Secretary, and take a long holiday.

At 10pm on Thursday, as the markets, the pollsters and the bookies wrongly declared for REMAIN, Cameron looked like he might go down in history as the man who won two elections, three referendums, dragged the Tories into the modern world by settling the argument on Europe and strengthened the economy after the crash. Now he is in the history books forever for one thing and one alone. The man who gave a referendum to the people to make the biggest political decision of our lifetime, which led to Britain leaving the EU.

The tragedy lies in the fact that his arguments were right but they were not enough to defeat the myths and the lies, and the emotions, anger, divisions and inequalities of the post crash, post globalisation world. And though I always said it was a huge strategic error to cave in to a referendum, rather than fight and win the case as part of a general election, he showed yesterday that at least he has the courage, bearing and dignity that real leadership sometimes requires. Johnson looked about as Prime Ministerial as a discarded half-eaten Chinese takeaway sitting on the kitchen table after a heavy night that felt great at the time but left you with a nauseous feeling in the stomach and a dreadful pain in the head. As for the protests of young people to whom he used to project himself as modern, outward-looking, pro-immigration (when running for Mayor), their protests will now follow him wherever he goes.

And what a wonderful irony that a campaign whose central argument was that the people should be able to elect our own leaders so we weren't "run by unelected bureaucrats" (sic) ends with a new Prime Minister elected only by the shrinking force that is the Tory Party membership. An irony horribly compounded by this reality - Boris Johnson, as elitist and right wing as they come, has been put into pole position by blue-collar workers who will be the hardest hit by the consequences both of Brexit and of a Johnson government.

brexit-hsbc-forecasts-stagflation-meaning-slower-growth-higher-inflation-uk.jpg

HSBC had previously forecasted UK inflation to rise to 1.7% by the end of 2017Reuters
The Tory Party, dominated by the older generation who voted overwhelmingly for a Brexit younger people did not want, may well elect him. But for the country Johnson has gone overnight from being a loveable rogue who knows how to work up a crowd to being the most divisive political figure in the country. And right now the country needs leaders who can heal not divide. Johnson is not that man. Nor is Jeremy Corbyn, as has been obvious since he was elected Labour leader, as was obvious during the campaign and obvious again yesterday. He just cannot do the job.

We have a crisis of leadership at a time we could be heading for a crisis in the economy and a crisis of division within the country. These are dark and depressing times. This is a divided country and the divisions are within as well as between communities.

Many are now saying we all need to pull together and make this work. I am not sure I agree. The country has voted on a totally false prospectus for a decision that has dramatic and damaging consequences, many as yet unseen. As the reality of that sinks in, the anger will grow. I believe the recognition of the sheer scale of the error that has been made will grow. The demands for a second referendum will grow.

Who wrote that rubbish? He/she needs to calm down and stop ranting irrationally.

Yes a big change is upon us and it won't be a smooth ride but the nation has spoken and the choice has been to break away from the EU.

It was right to have the referendum, right to let the people choose. It's called democracy. Let's get on with making the best of the decision made to leave.
 
I think Cameron has to take a lot of the blame for this result, he sat there in his ivory tower thinking he could not possibly lose and did not have a decent remain campaign. Even if he carried out a half arsed, well reasoned campaign he would have walked it.

Lesson = ignore the uneducated and working class at your peril!

Do agree. It was funny how overnight, even on Thursday evening, you could see Boris' stock falling. Images of him in papers changed, and he went from friendly and engaging, to villain.

Cameron's stock couldn't be higher despite his errors. Cameron wasn't backed up by others (another of his failings maybe). Not only his trusted political friends - Gove, Borris, Hane - but by Labour and others like Teresa May in the Conservatives who took a back seat and left it all to Cameron and Osbourne. Was essentially these two against Boris, Gove, and UKIP. No one thought we would ultimately leave, and they didn't get too involved. These people also carry the blame in my opinion, as do the press.

Seemingly completely un-criticised, much of the press has overnight turned tail. Reading the Daily Mail this morning, you'd never have guessed they were pro-Brexit. Its astonishing. The Times even more so. From the Sunday Times coming out for Brexit, a day or so later, they are full of stories on the UKs perils in a Brexit world. But there are no stories like "Press leads People into a Blind Alley over Europe" of course.

The press has chipped away at the EU for decades. Stories about bananas actually pretty funny and good to read (as opposed to the boring functional reality of the EU which is far from interesting). Combining superficial disdain for johnny foreigner and a sense of external control of our Great Britain, they were onto a winner. Now suddenly, overnight, there's a shift, no one external to blame anymore. Instead they are facing up to the post-Brexit mess that many predicted; but not the right wing press. Why not? And how do they continue talking about the malaise in the UK now, without once referring to their own papers contradictory approach and their role in helping to bring about a Leave vote?
 
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Do these two look like they have just won a historic victory?

brexit-johnson-gove.jpg


What the hell did you want them to look like, jumping up and down with glee? if they had there would be idiots, wingers, moaners from the remain camp having a go at them. Instead they looked serious and they still have idiots, moaners, wingers from the remain camp having a go at them. They could not win. :rolleyes:
 
Is this pish?

.

Depends what you mean by Pish ( a word i have not come across before).

What it is is just more of the rubbish the remain camp were using to try and con the voters into voting remain, it now being used by those who can not stand the thought that the MAJORITY votes to leave and ( as we see in this thread) have started to throw their toys out of the pram.
 
Why are all the right on left wing remain types so keen to be joined to places like Poland. Now there's a place with an actual racism problem. Look at this from a year ago https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ants-they-dont-understand-them-dont-like-them

"According to a study in 2013 by the Centre for Research on Prejudice – a professional academic centre at the University of Warsaw – as many as 69% of Poles do not want non-white people living in their country."
So isolating people further does nothing to defeat intolerance.
 
I think the author should wait at least a few weeks before proclaiming such things as "The Economic shrinkage that is now on the way"...maybe even a few months.
Not even a working day has passed and already people are already saying "well what plan do they have"?

Indeed, you can hear the wailing, bitching and crying from here.
 
Why are all the right on left wing remain types so keen to be joined to places like Poland. Now there's a place with an actual racism problem. Look at this from a year ago https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ants-they-dont-understand-them-dont-like-them

"According to a study in 2013 by the Centre for Research on Prejudice – a professional academic centre at the University of Warsaw – as many as 69% of Poles do not want non-white people living in their country."

Yeah I'm glad we are breaking away from a country like that. They want and get everything without putting anything back in. What a disgrace.

Selfish, arrogant bunch of runts.
 
Who wrote that rubbish? He/she needs to calm down and stop ranting irrationally.

Yes a big change is upon us and it won't be a smooth ride but the nation has spoken and the choice has been to break away from the EU.

It was right to have the referendum, right to let the people choose. It's called democracy. Let's get on with making the best of the decision made to leave.

It fuel for the fire the moaners and those that can not except that the majority of votes did not go down the path they wanted.
 
Who wrote that rubbish? He/she needs to calm down and stop ranting irrationally.

Yes a big change is upon us and it won't be a smooth ride but the nation has spoken and the choice has been to break away from the EU.

It was right to have the referendum, right to let the people choose. It's called democracy. Let's get on with making the best of the decision made to leave.

Well, the nation has spoken but only just over half wanted this. It's illuminated a deep divide.

The only reason we had the referendum was because Dave was trying to protect his own position. He put self-interest first and he's reaping the reward.

His complacency coupled with Leave's lack of plan (because they never actually believed they could win - it was just manouvering by Johnson to be next in line for the top job, and how that's come home to roost) means we're now in for months or maybe years of limbo before even being able to begin the exit. What a shambles.
 
Depends what you mean by Pish ( a word i have not come across before).

What it is is just more of the rubbish the remain camp were using to try and con the voters into voting remain, it now being used by those who can not stand the thought that the MAJORITY votes to leave and ( as we see in this thread) have started to throw their toys out of the pram.

It seems that a large chunk of the Leave voters who were mis-sold a manifesto of lower immigration and higher NHS spend are the ones that were conned.
 
I think the author should wait at least a few weeks before proclaiming such things as "The Economic shrinkage that is now on the way"...maybe even a few months.
Not even a working day has passed and already people are already saying "well what plan do they have"?

A fair point. The pound may bounce back tomorrow and next week, or imo, more likely, it will fall further. I hope I am wrong.

Re. Shrinkage "The vote had wiped out more money than we had paid into the EU in the last 15 years." The evidence is there, no need to wait.

Furthermore, we can do things about this now. Brexit is yet to be defined. I noted that no one on here, bar maybe @scaramanga, have outlined what they would like Brexit to look like.

With the prospect of financial services leaving London, the breakup of the Union, and the pound and UK companies having billions wiped off, we should sit back and do nothing??

 
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Do agree. It was funny how overnight, even on Thursday evening, you could see Boris' stock falling. Images of him in papers changed, and he went from friendly and engaging, to villain.

Cameron's stock couldn't be higher despite his errors. Cameron wasn't backed up by others (another of his failings maybe). Not only his trusted political friends - Gove, Borris, Hane - but by Labour and others like Teresa May in the Conservatives who took a back seat and left it all to Cameron and Osbourne. Was essentially these two against Boris, Gove, and UKIP. No one thought we would ultimately leave, and they didn't get too involved. These people also carry the blame in my opinion, as do the press.

Seemingly completely un-criticised, much of the press has overnight turned tail. Reading the Daily Mail this morning, you'd never have guessed they were pro-Brexit. Its astonishing. The Times even more so. From the Sunday Times coming out for Brexit, a day or so later, they are full of stories on the UKs perils in a Brexit world. But there are no stories like "Press leads People into a Blind Alley over Europe" of course.

The press has chipped away at the EU for decades. Stories about bananas actually pretty funny and good to read (as opposed to the boring functional reality of the EU which is far from interesting). Combining superficial disdain for johnny foreigner and a sense of external control of our Great Britain, they were onto a winner. Now suddenly, overnight, there's a shift, no one external to blame anymore. Instead they are facing up to the post-Brexit mess that many predicted; but not the right wing press. Why not? And how do they continue talking about the malaise in the UK now, without once referring to their own papers contradictory approach and their role in helping to bring about a Leave vote?

Cameron wasn't backed by others as they don't like him. I don't think he is considered a proper tory by his party with is middle/left tendencies.

They all distanced themselves from his during the campaign knowing there may well be a leadership challenge post referendum. They all wanted to protect their position within the party and not be associated with Cameron. Some distanced themselves because they wanted to challenge for PM and some wanted to keep their seat for any potentially incoming PM (Boris).

As usual, politicians protecting their own interests rather than the interests of the country.
 
Well, the nation has spoken but only just over half wanted this. It's illuminated a deep divide.

The only reason we had the referendum was because Dave was trying to protect his own position. He put self-interest first and he's reaping the reward.

His complacency coupled with Leave's lack of plan (because they never actually believed they could win - it was just manouvering by Johnson to be next in line for the top job, and how that's come home to roost) means we're now in for months or maybe years of limbo before even being able to begin the exit. What a shambles.

No we didn't have the referendum because Dave was trying to protect his position. It is a subject that has bothered many millions in this country, many areas. A huge number of people were no longer happy with aspects of being part of a unelected and untouchable EU superstate where Britain and British people no longer had a say or control over policies and laws.

The nation needed a referendum and over 17 mill chose to be part of the leave side. 17 million!!!!!!! Do you think they cared about Dave and his need to protect his position? Finally they had their right to have THEIR voice heard. That is what is great about democracy. Yes there were 16 mill who thought the opposite and wanted to remain but as in any vote it's the majority that wins and after that it has to be accepted and everyone has to move on together and make the best of it.

There is a divide but let's not make the divide any bigger or worse than it really is. The coming period will be unstable and uncertain, of course it's possible it will be painful to some, but I don't think you realise how many people who voted to leave have been suffering for many years in their individual lives and communities. Of couse they have felt that no-one has been listening to their concerns and with this referendum they had a chance to make their voice heard. Surely you cannot be against this basic democratic human right?
 
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No we didn't have the referendum because Dave was trying to protect his position. It is a subject that has bothered many millions in this country, many areas. A huge number of people were no longer happy with aspects of being part of a unelected and untouchable EU superstate where Britain and British people no longer had a say or control over policies and laws.

The nation needed a referendum and over 17 mill chose to be part of the leave side. 17 million!!!!!!! Do you think they cared about Dave and his need to protect his position? Finally they had there right to have THEIR voice heard. That is what is great about democracy. Yes there were 16 mill who thought the opposite and wanted to remain but as in any vote it's the majority that wins and after that it has to be accepted and everyone has to move on together and make the best of it.

Their is a divide but let's not make the divide any bigger or worse than it really is. The coming period will be unstable and uncertain, of course it's possible it will be painful to some, but I don't think you realise how many people who voted to leave have been suffering for many years in their individual lives and communities. Of couse they have felt that no-one has been listening to their concerns and with this referendum they had a chance to make their voice heard. Surely you cannot be against this basic democratic human right?

It's a really well made point. And what UKIP and Leave offered connected with people in a way the traditional parties are not. Problem for everyone is that the EU has little to do with sorting these issues. That is the tragedy of it. If anything leaving the EU will worsen things for many of those that voted leave. It is wholly unfair, and no one wins.

If we accept being poorer, then maybe England can build a new society based on better values etc. but I am sceptical. People care most about money. The global economy is based on money. Not values or quality of life. Ironically, in say France, they have a society which is more focused on quality of life. They are not as affluent, but they work less, and live better. Now we're set to be out the EU, the Conservatives will remove any of the working time directives, and things that protect the working people. If they don't what was the point of leaving?
 
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That's not how capitalisation works. You can't compare it to government expenditure.

One takes years of taxation, hard work, government policy on spending, elections, votes etc. the other makes quick profits for bankers. Both are real however. Both are massive amounts of money that reflect on the UK. It is absurd to dismiss a figure which is equal to 15 years worth of UKs contribution to the EU, just like that. It is what was predicted, and it came true. Hopefully Sterling will bounce back.
 
Now we're set to be out the EU, the Conservatives will remove any of the working time directives, and things that protect the working people. If they don't what was the point of leaving?

Ok I ask you, if they do that and it causes huge problems for people of this country on a basic daily level that they are completely p!ssed off with the conservatives and their policies, what do you think will happen?
 
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