Politics, politics, politics

[the dza]

Mate, I agree that racism and antisemitism are wide of the mark when it comes to sticks to beat Corbyn with. The likelihood is that he is a decent man at heart. Nevertheless he lacks leadership qualities. He comes across as a mumbling,indecisive old man and he is leadinf the Labour Party into electoral oblivion. I put a lot of blame on "leave" winning the vote squarely on his shoulders. The margin was so tight if only he had gone out to the labour heartlands of the NE and Wales and made a better case for what he said he believed in. Much as I was not a fan of Cameron, he earned my respect with the way he fought to remain in the EU. Corbyn was conspicuous by his ambivalence. Cameron has fallen on his sword so should Corbyn. We need strong leadership in the Labour Party with the Tories lurching to the right.

I don't think Corbyn is a leader, but I am pleased he has changed the conversation from the nodding dogs in the Labour Party who were too scared to vote against Tory benefit cuts and stick up for poorer people. If there is a proper candidate to replace him, then it's a fair debate to have. If it's just some Blairite whose only qualification is 'anyone but Corbyn' then that's not something I can get behind. I voted remain but I understand why many voted for leave, I can't really describe myself as passionate remain voter, so I kinda get where Corbyn is coming from in that respect.

Apparently, something like 65% of Labour voters voted remain, 40-45% or so Tory voters voted remain. IMO, voters in traditional Labour areas in the North and Wales who decided to vote to leave did so on the issue of immigration, and I'm not sure what Corbyn could have said to them to bring them around. For them, the equation was to leave the EU and kill unskilled migration. There's not a lot the remain campaign could offer to counter that. Whether leaving actually works out that way is a different story.

I don't think Corbyn is the messiah. My hope is that he paves the way for someone with left-wing values to come in and win an election when the country decides to throw the Tories out, which they will at some point, as they do with every government we've ever had. I really don't want it to be another Blair who is there to pick up the baton.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Mate I know very well that many of the people who voted leave were not racists. In fact there are very good reasons to vote out, the EU is far from perfect. However for a significant number of the leavers Xenophobia played a large part in their voting choice. Additionally a "leave" victory especially if Scotland decide to go too, could leave England and Wales very isolated and that breeds an insular and potentially intolerant mindset. My father came to this country in 1969. The national front was far stronger in those days. The country has come a long way since then but some of the rhetoric I heard from the leavers, including Farage's poster about Syrian refugees, the murder of Jo Cox, and the far right regularly marching in the NE and Yorkshire holding up "refugees not welcome" placards, left me holding my head in my hands.

Racism sadly will always play a part in daily life to a certain degree. On another issue in the future we may see the far right marching for the opposite choice..it was a dirty war and i think all sides were getting desperate really.
There was shamelessness on both sides, esp the attitude to Turkey joining (on both sides). How people with Turkish roots felt about all that one can only imagine..
The very worst thing that can happen now is people using the racism of some to tar the rest (on either side of this EU debate) as it will only cause more of the isolation you talk about.
I especially feel uncomfortable with the binary choice of "EU integration beyond what a nation wants" vs "Taking more responsibility to Govern oneself equals isolationism". This again leads to unnecessarily polarised positions

 

[glorygloryeze]

So the leave voters that voted so because immigrants are taking their jobs aren't voting with their wallets either?
I'm ambivalent about the whole thing and have no axe to grind with either side because regardless of whichever side won nothing will change.
The whole thing is perfection and while the general public are busy with these kinds of arguments politicians are busy figuring out how they can keep themselves in a job.

My point is there is a difference in whining about the result because there is going to be an effect on your wallet and whining about something that seemingly wasn't brought up as an issue before.
Whining about the result because of the wallet is the EXPECTED thing to do in this case

 

[Robspur12]

I have to take an exception to your first sentence. I've lived in Tottenham 3/4 of my life (Most of you come to where I live 19 times every 9 months or so). I see it every single day. If I walk from my family home to Bruce Grove I hear up to 10 different languages.

Let me ask you a question? Why is it wrong that I don't like that?

Mate, I don't know your back ground but if I assume that you have not been a victim of racism then you will not understand how sensitive it can make you. Why does it bother you if those people on the Tottenham high road are speaking a different language if they not causing you a problem? I fully understand it if you are saying those communities are failing to integrate into the native community but what is the problem with them also staying faithful to their traditions?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I have to take an exception to your first sentence. I've lived in Tottenham 3/4 of my life (Most of you come to where I live 19 times every 9 months or so). I see it every single day. If I walk from my family home to Bruce Grove I hear up to 10 different languages.

Let me ask you a question? Why is it wrong that I don't like that?

I think it is fine mate. I think you and @Robspur12 are talking cross purposes. He's saying how uncomfortable foreign people now feel being in this country, and I see that too. I live not far from you, and am surrounded by so many nationalities. Polish people, Turks, Jews, you name it, we have them. London is a melting pot. Maybe what people are not understanding is that if a road or an estate you grew up on, is now populated by a different alien culture/s to your own, one that you don't know, and doesn't include you - because they are speaking a different language, that is real. That isn't integration, it is not a 'melted pot' at all. But that doesn't happen in Kensignton or Hampstead it happens in poorer areas...Many people do have a biased view and should at least try seeing other peoples reality.

I think both points are very valid: that those who are migrants and have lived here paid taxes, spoken English well most of the time, now feel a little more threatened. And that there are areas where there isn't integration of migrants. We now have a UK citizen test, where you need to speak English to pass. So things are developing to be fair.

Regard Steff's point Roy, all he was saying is that to move to Spain legally may not be possible after Brexit. We'll see, I hope we keep free movement myself.

 

[Robspur12]

Racism sadly will always play a part in daily life to a certain degree. On another issue in the future we may see the far right marching for the opposite choice..it was a dirty war and i think all sides were getting desperate really.
There was shamelessness on both sides, esp the attitude to Turkey joining (on both sides). How people with Turkish roots felt about all that one can only imagine..
The very worst thing that can happen now is people using the racism of some to tar the rest (on either side of this EU debate) as it will only cause more of the isolation you talk about.
I especially feel uncomfortable with the binary choice of "EU integration beyond what a nation wants" vs "Taking more responsibility to Govern oneself equals isolationism". This again leads to unnecessarily polarised positions

As I say the argument of sovereignty is fine and a laudable argument to base your decision to remain or leave. Sadly for many people I suspect it was xenophobia rather than sovereignty that was a huge factor in their choices. As Galeforce mentioned previously the far right will feel emboldened by this even though the reality is most people were not as extreme in their views as the BNP.

 

[Robspur12]

I think it is fine mate. I think you and @Robspur12 are talking cross purposes. He's saying how uncomfortable foreign people now feel being in this country, and I see that too. I live not far from you, and am surrounded by so many nationalities. Polish people, Turks, Jews, you name it, we have them. London is a melting pot. Maybe what people are not understanding is that if a road or an estate you grew up on, is now populated by a different alien culture/s to your own, one that you don't know, and doesn't include you - because they are speaking a different language, that is real. That isn't integration, it is not a 'melted pot' at all. But that doesn't happen in Kensignton or Hampstead it happens in poorer areas...Many people do have a biased view and should at least try seeing other peoples reality.

I think both points are very valid: that those who are migrants and have lived here paid taxes, spoken English well most of the time, now feel a little more threatened. And that there are areas where there isn't integration of migrants. We now have a UK citizen test, where you need to speak English to pass. So things are developing to be fair.

Regard Steff's point Roy, all he was saying is that to move to Spain legally may not be possible after Brexit. We'll see, I hope we keep free movement myself.

The problem with immigration, if you take away the issues of overcrowding, pressure on services etc, is that it can take at least one generation for immigrants to integrate. First generation immigrants come here as adults and feel less secure in a "foreign" country that they have not been brought up in so stick to the culture they are comfortable with. The second generation immigrants, like me are generally more confident, are brought up knowing English traditions an as a result are more likely to integrate. Those Eastern European migrants may well be hanging on to their cultural identities now but their kids would be in the main indistinguishable from English kids. I suppose my rational head would say the sheer un precedented number of first generation immigrants is what has caused the problem. But IMO that would have resolved itself eventually if the country had been willing to be patient and of course integration is easier where the native country welcomes the immigrants.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Do these two look like they have just won a historic victory?

 

[glorygloryeze]

As I say the argument of sovereignty is fine and a laudable argument to base your decision to remain or leave. Sadly for many people I suspect it was xenophobia rather than sovereignty that was a huge factor in their choices. As Galeforce mentioned previously the far right will feel emboldened by this even though the reality is most people were not as extreme in their views as the BNP.

Funnily enough, I actually think there would have been more problems in the short term if Remain had won the vote. They would have had grounds to go on a more concerted recruitment drive and many who voted Leave who were not racist but were vulnerable to accepting the racist anti-EU sentiments would have really joined their ranks. The result keeps those type of people away from their clutches and keeps the ranks confined to the hardcore racists who will always be there anyway.

The leave result imo acts as a pressure relief valve that stops too much hot air building up and bursting into a REAL fascist onward march

 

[glorygloryeze]

The problem with immigration, if you take away the issues of overcrowding, pressure on services etc, is that it can take at least one generation for immigrants to integrate. First generation immigrants come here as adults and feel less secure in a "foreign" country that they have not been brought up in so stick to the culture they are comfortable with. The second generation immigrants, like me are generally more confident, are brought up knowing English traditions an as a result are more likely to integrate. Those Eastern European migrants may well be hanging on to their cultural identities now but their kids would be in the main indistinguishable from English kids. I suppose my rational head would say the sheer un precedented number of first generation immigrants is what has caused the problem. But IMO that would have resolved itself eventually if the country had been willing to be patient and of course integration is easier where the native country welcomes the immigrants.

Additionally they have the benefit of having the same skin colour and, likely, same religion (if they are religious) and so in future generations when their accent becomes localised only the surname may give away the fact that their roots are elsewhere.
It's why the likes of Poles will likely integrate quicker than Blacks or Asians did (if they ever do/did)

 

[SpurMeUp]

Is this pish?

Well, Michael Gove was right about the experts being wrong. They totally underestimated the extent of the disaster that Brexit would unleash. It is perhaps why he and his partner in crime Boris Johnson looked like they were at the funeral of their old friend yesterday, not a celebration of one of the most remarkable and truly historic campaign victories of our time.

So let's look at some of the things we on the Remain side said would happen, and which were all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear.

Virtually every major economic voice in the world warned there would be an immediate plunge in the value of the pound, investors would start to pull out, and the Bank of England would have to step in. As the pound charts began to resemble a modern graphic of the white cliffs of Dover, no wonder Gove and Johnson looked sick. The vote had wiped out more money than we had paid into the EU in the last 15 years. Brilliant. They took back control of economic madness.

The economic shrinkage that is now on the way means that far from their claim (aka lie) about more money from the NHS being delivered by Brexit, public services will now see their budgets cut. And in any event, Johnson's fellow campaigner Nigel Farage has already dumped the NHS pledge, just as Daniel Hannan MEP has begun to walk away from the pledge to stop free movement.

Dover, by the way − that is where the border with France is moving to now. That was Project Fear too. Of course the French would continue to look after our borders − said LEAVE. It's in their interests too, innit, stands to reason, common sense? The French authorities are already calling for the Treaty of Le Touquet to be renegotiated. It is going to happen.

Then there is the hard Irish border which is already on the agenda − that was never going to happen− said LEAVE. Well the logic of ending free movement of people means it has to happen. You cannot be out of the single market and not have controls at border points. Impossible. One of those inconvenient truths that had no place in the wretched, dumbed down, post-intelligence debate we have had, where brainy Oxbridge politicians link up with the right-wing tax dodgers, foreigners, liars and pornographers who own most of our national press and are today enjoying the benefits of years of lying about Europe and hate-stirring against immigrants. The power-crazed Murdochs and sociopathic Dacres of this world are all too easy to despise. But it was politicians Johnson, Gove and Farage who managed to turn the lies and the myths into a campaign that persuaded millions of people to go their way.

Then there is Scotland, and our warnings that a Brexit vote would lead to the break-up of the Union. Scaremongering. No way would the Scots go for a second referendum with the oil price so low. Well as we have seen in recent days sometimes emotion can top economics. Added to which I for one would much rather live in the Scotland Nicola Sturgeon described yesterday than the England of Johnson and Farage. Scotland will get a second referendum. And the Union is likely to break. And many of those English people who voted for Brexit will say "oh well, who needs them?" Like they have been saying who needs the EU, and singing their xenophobic songs about it at the football in France. They are beginning to get their answer.

This referendum has been a bigger story around the world than any event in Britain since the death of Princess Diana. The consequences are obviously far, far greater. Most of the rest of the world is looking on with a mix of bemusement and concern. The exceptions are Isis, who welcomed the decision (and those of us who said they would were attacked for even suggesting they might), Donald Trump, who dropped into the cartoon yesterday to insult the Prime Minister and our intelligence, and Vladimir Putin, who is rejoicing in seeing Europe destabilised without him needing to lift a finger. As an American friend emailed me yesterday "at least we can now begin to lose our reputation as the most stupid country in the world".

To watch and hear the vox pops of some of my fellow Brits expressing buyers' remorse yesterday was to want to weep. "I only voted LEAVE because everyone said REMAIN was winning."

Another said: "I didn't realise it would actually mean we left. All my family are really sad today. We want to go and vote again."

"I thought they were just trying to scare us when they said the pound would fall."

And: "I voted by post and now I wished I hadn't."

There were also the ones celebrating because they imagined the lies they had been told were actually going to happen. "We'll be able to build a new hospital every week."; "The immigrants will have to go home now."; "We've got our country back." Well you wait and just see what kind of country this will create.

Britain's national press react to the BrexitGetty
There was the lifelong Tory, the man who said he liked and admired David Cameron, who couldn't believe the Prime Minister was resigning. He had breathed in the warm words of admiration of the LEAVE Tories that they wanted Cameron to stay. And do their dirty work. If Cameron was as ruthless, nasty and narcissistic as Johnson, he would ask him to be Chancellor and Gove to be Foreign Secretary, and take a long holiday.

At 10pm on Thursday, as the markets, the pollsters and the bookies wrongly declared for REMAIN, Cameron looked like he might go down in history as the man who won two elections, three referendums, dragged the Tories into the modern world by settling the argument on Europe and strengthened the economy after the crash. Now he is in the history books forever for one thing and one alone. The man who gave a referendum to the people to make the biggest political decision of our lifetime, which led to Britain leaving the EU.

The tragedy lies in the fact that his arguments were right but they were not enough to defeat the myths and the lies, and the emotions, anger, divisions and inequalities of the post crash, post globalisation world. And though I always said it was a huge strategic error to cave in to a referendum, rather than fight and win the case as part of a general election, he showed yesterday that at least he has the courage, bearing and dignity that real leadership sometimes requires. Johnson looked about as Prime Ministerial as a discarded half-eaten Chinese takeaway sitting on the kitchen table after a heavy night that felt great at the time but left you with a nauseous feeling in the stomach and a dreadful pain in the head. As for the protests of young people to whom he used to project himself as modern, outward-looking, pro-immigration (when running for Mayor), their protests will now follow him wherever he goes.

And what a wonderful irony that a campaign whose central argument was that the people should be able to elect our own leaders so we weren't "run by unelected bureaucrats" (sic) ends with a new Prime Minister elected only by the shrinking force that is the Tory Party membership. An irony horribly compounded by this reality - Boris Johnson, as elitist and right wing as they come, has been put into pole position by blue-collar workers who will be the hardest hit by the consequences both of Brexit and of a Johnson government.

HSBC had previously forecasted UK inflation to rise to 1.7% by the end of 2017Reuters
The Tory Party, dominated by the older generation who voted overwhelmingly for a Brexit younger people did not want, may well elect him. But for the country Johnson has gone overnight from being a loveable rogue who knows how to work up a crowd to being the most divisive political figure in the country. And right now the country needs leaders who can heal not divide. Johnson is not that man. Nor is Jeremy Corbyn, as has been obvious since he was elected Labour leader, as was obvious during the campaign and obvious again yesterday. He just cannot do the job.

We have a crisis of leadership at a time we could be heading for a crisis in the economy and a crisis of division within the country. These are dark and depressing times. This is a divided country and the divisions are within as well as between communities.

Many are now saying we all need to pull together and make this work. I am not sure I agree. The country has voted on a totally false prospectus for a decision that has dramatic and damaging consequences, many as yet unseen. As the reality of that sinks in, the anger will grow. I believe the recognition of the sheer scale of the error that has been made will grow. The demands for a second referendum will grow. Or for a general election where an unequivocally pro-EU case can be put by an unequivocally progressive party. Right now it is hard to see where that party is or who are the people who could lead it. But without it, this country is in trouble and staring at rapid decline.

And discredited though they are, the pollsters might try to find out what proportion of the population think we made the right decision on Thursday. I suspect it will be well short of 52%.

 

[Robspur12]

Funnily enough, I actually think there would have been more problems in the short term if Remain had won the vote. They would have had grounds to go on a more concerted recruitment drive and many who voted Leave who were not racist but were vulnerable to accepting the racist anti-EU sentiments would have really joined their ranks. The result keeps those type of people away from their clutches and keeps the ranks confined to the hardcore racists who will always be there anyway.

The leave result imo acts as a pressure relief valve that stops too much hot air building up and bursting into a REAL fascist onward march

I think that is certainly a powerful argument for "leave" in the short term and something which Boris alluded to in his speech yesterday. But it seems, in the long term, counter intuitive to defeat intolerant attitudes (as opposed to hard core racists) by reducing the exposure of communities to foreign immigrants.

 

[Robspur12]

Is this pish?

Well, Michael Gove was right about the experts being wrong. They totally underestimated the extent of the disaster that Brexit would unleash. It is perhaps why he and his partner in crime Boris Johnson looked like they were at the funeral of their old friend yesterday, not a celebration of one of the most remarkable and truly historic campaign victories of our time.

So let's look at some of the things we on the Remain side said would happen, and which were all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear.

Virtually every major economic voice in the world warned there would be an immediate plunge in the value of the pound, investors would start to pull out, and the Bank of England would have to step in. As the pound charts began to resemble a modern graphic of the white cliffs of Dover, no wonder Gove and Johnson looked sick. The vote had wiped out more money than we had paid into the EU in the last 15 years. Brilliant. They took back control of economic madness.

The economic shrinkage that is now on the way means that far from their claim (aka lie) about more money from the NHS being delivered by Brexit, public services will now see their budgets cut. And in any event, Johnson's fellow campaigner Nigel Farage has already dumped the NHS pledge, just as Daniel Hannan MEP has begun to walk away from the pledge to stop free movement.

Dover, by the way − that is where the border with France is moving to now. That was Project Fear too. Of course the French would continue to look after our borders − said LEAVE. It's in their interests too, innit, stands to reason, common sense? The French authorities are already calling for the Treaty of Le Touquet to be renegotiated. It is going to happen.

Then there is the hard Irish border which is already on the agenda − that was never going to happen− said LEAVE. Well the logic of ending free movement of people means it has to happen. You cannot be out of the single market and not have controls at border points. Impossible. One of those inconvenient truths that had no place in the wretched, dumbed down, post-intelligence debate we have had, where brainy Oxbridge politicians link up with the right-wing tax dodgers, foreigners, liars and pornographers who own most of our national press and are today enjoying the benefits of years of lying about Europe and hate-stirring against immigrants. The power-crazed Murdochs and sociopathic Dacres of this world are all too easy to despise. But it was politicians Johnson, Gove and Farage who managed to turn the lies and the myths into a campaign that persuaded millions of people to go their way.

Then there is Scotland, and our warnings that a Brexit vote would lead to the break-up of the Union. Scaremongering. No way would the Scots go for a second referendum with the oil price so low. Well as we have seen in recent days sometimes emotion can top economics. Added to which I for one would much rather live in the Scotland Nicola Sturgeon described yesterday than the England of Johnson and Farage. Scotland will get a second referendum. And the Union is likely to break. And many of those English people who voted for Brexit will say "oh well, who needs them?" Like they have been saying who needs the EU, and singing their xenophobic songs about it at the football in France. They are beginning to get their answer.

This referendum has been a bigger story around the world than any event in Britain since the death of Princess Diana. The consequences are obviously far, far greater. Most of the rest of the world is looking on with a mix of bemusement and concern. The exceptions are Isis, who welcomed the decision (and those of us who said they would were attacked for even suggesting they might), Donald Trump, who dropped into the cartoon yesterday to insult the Prime Minister and our intelligence, and Vladimir Putin, who is rejoicing in seeing Europe destabilised without him needing to lift a finger. As an American friend emailed me yesterday "at least we can now begin to lose our reputation as the most stupid country in the world".

To watch and hear the vox pops of some of my fellow Brits expressing buyers' remorse yesterday was to want to weep. "I only voted LEAVE because everyone said REMAIN was winning."

Another said: "I didn't realise it would actually mean we left. All my family are really sad today. We want to go and vote again."

"I thought they were just trying to scare us when they said the pound would fall."

And: "I voted by post and now I wished I hadn't."

There were also the ones celebrating because they imagined the lies they had been told were actually going to happen. "We'll be able to build a new hospital every week."; "The immigrants will have to go home now."; "We've got our country back." Well you wait and just see what kind of country this will create.

Britain's national press react to the BrexitGetty
There was the lifelong Tory, the man who said he liked and admired David Cameron, who couldn't believe the Prime Minister was resigning. He had breathed in the warm words of admiration of the LEAVE Tories that they wanted Cameron to stay. And do their dirty work. If Cameron was as ruthless, nasty and narcissistic as Johnson, he would ask him to be Chancellor and Gove to be Foreign Secretary, and take a long holiday.

At 10pm on Thursday, as the markets, the pollsters and the bookies wrongly declared for REMAIN, Cameron looked like he might go down in history as the man who won two elections, three referendums, dragged the Tories into the modern world by settling the argument on Europe and strengthened the economy after the crash. Now he is in the history books forever for one thing and one alone. The man who gave a referendum to the people to make the biggest political decision of our lifetime, which led to Britain leaving the EU.

The tragedy lies in the fact that his arguments were right but they were not enough to defeat the myths and the lies, and the emotions, anger, divisions and inequalities of the post crash, post globalisation world. And though I always said it was a huge strategic error to cave in to a referendum, rather than fight and win the case as part of a general election, he showed yesterday that at least he has the courage, bearing and dignity that real leadership sometimes requires. Johnson looked about as Prime Ministerial as a discarded half-eaten Chinese takeaway sitting on the kitchen table after a heavy night that felt great at the time but left you with a nauseous feeling in the stomach and a dreadful pain in the head. As for the protests of young people to whom he used to project himself as modern, outward-looking, pro-immigration (when running for Mayor), their protests will now follow him wherever he goes.

And what a wonderful irony that a campaign whose central argument was that the people should be able to elect our own leaders so we weren't "run by unelected bureaucrats" (sic) ends with a new Prime Minister elected only by the shrinking force that is the Tory Party membership. An irony horribly compounded by this reality - Boris Johnson, as elitist and right wing as they come, has been put into pole position by blue-collar workers who will be the hardest hit by the consequences both of Brexit and of a Johnson government.

HSBC had previously forecasted UK inflation to rise to 1.7% by the end of 2017Reuters
The Tory Party, dominated by the older generation who voted overwhelmingly for a Brexit younger people did not want, may well elect him. But for the country Johnson has gone overnight from being a loveable rogue who knows how to work up a crowd to being the most divisive political figure in the country. And right now the country needs leaders who can heal not divide. Johnson is not that man. Nor is Jeremy Corbyn, as has been obvious since he was elected Labour leader, as was obvious during the campaign and obvious again yesterday. He just cannot do the job.

We have a crisis of leadership at a time we could be heading for a crisis in the economy and a crisis of division within the country. These are dark and depressing times. This is a divided country and the divisions are within as well as between communities.

Many are now saying we all need to pull together and make this work. I am not sure I agree. The country has voted on a totally false prospectus for a decision that has dramatic and damaging consequences, many as yet unseen. As the reality of that sinks in, the anger will grow. I believe the recognition of the sheer scale of the error that has been made will grow. The demands for a second referendum will grow. Or for a general election where an unequivocally pro-EU case can be put by an unequivocally progressive party. Right now it is hard to see where that party is or who are the people who could lead it. But without it, this country is in trouble and staring at rapid decline.

And discredited though they are, the pollsters might try to find out what proportion of the population think we made the right decision on Thursday. I suspect it will be well short of 52%.

Where's this article from?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think that is certainly a powerful argument for "leave" in the short term and something which Boris alluded to in his speech yesterday. But it seems, in the long term, counter intuitive to defeat intolerant attitudes (as opposed to hard core racists) by reducing the exposure of communities to foreign immigrants.

You can't force exposure of foreign immigrants on communities to defeat intolerant attitudes; that comes gradually and over time. Just in the same way i'm sure many Spaniards don't like the Costa Del Sol-type of English communities where most don't speak any Spanish or integrate with Spaniards. In fact, i bet if not for the cash they bring the Spanish would have wanted them out long ago.

There will always be racist attitudes to immigrants; obviously the lengths that some will go to show this will vary across the world but the worry of some about their local community changing "too much, too quickly" would be repeated all over the world.

In the long term, i'm confident that in the UK that there will always be racists but that these on a ground level in most communities will be balanced out by those who are tolerant but also are proud of their identity and don't want it to be totally forgotten. The current globalised world makes this difficult in some places, however there are easy ways to distinguish between the two groups imo if you know how...

 

[SpurMeUp]

Where's this article from?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boris-john...x-national-disaster-hes-bequeathed-us-1567413

I have to say I agree with almost all of it. The tone is bitter. But that is because the author believes its a seismic mistake to Leave. As things stand I concur, and hope we have a general election. How can the referendum be Democratic if people didn't know what they were voting for? We still don't know what Leave means!

 

[glorygloryeze]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boris-john...x-national-disaster-hes-bequeathed-us-1567413

I have to say I agree with almost all of it. The tone is bitter. But that is because the author believes its a seismic mistake to Leave. As things stand I concur, and hope we have a general election. Its not Democratic if people didn't know what they were voting for.

I think the author should wait at least a few weeks before proclaiming such things as "The Economic shrinkage that is now on the way"...maybe even a few months.
Not even a working day has passed and already people are already saying "well what plan do they have"?

 

[Modric THFC]

Do these two look like they have just won a historic victory?

The man wants to be leader of the country though. He knows coming out all triumphant and waving his dingdong in peoples faces ala farage isn't gonna help him.

 

[Modric THFC]

Why are all the right on left wing remain types so keen to be joined to places like Poland. Now there's a place with an actual racism problem. Look at this from a year ago https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ants-they-dont-understand-them-dont-like-them

"According to a study in 2013 by the Centre for Research on Prejudice – a professional academic centre at the University of Warsaw – as many as 69% of Poles do not want non-white people living in their country."

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

There's no market for left wing media, the public in this country don't want it.

There are left wing papers but they have a tiny circulation because it doesn't interest the public. We've been voting centre right (or pinkos pretending to be centre right) for nearly 40 years.

Not enough tits and arse.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

So did Corbyn.

He's no less extreme than anyone you've listed.

He's not a nationalist or a supporter of aggressive foreign policy. Stop trying to compare apples with oranges.