Politics, politics, politics

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Yeah I did look at the figures, and it certainly provides pretty good evidence that unemployment isn't being significantly increased by immigrants!

Still, purely for my own interest, I'm interested to understand exactly how and why that's the case - anyone able to help me out and lay out the specific things that happen when an immigrant takes a job, that lead to higher GDP and therefore extra jobs?

For the record I was strongly in favour of remain (and voted as such).

I don't know, but could it be to do with the fact that that vacancy has now been filled, so products or services are being made or provided and tax paid.

That wasn't happening when the vacancy was open. And if was open for a decent period of time (8+ weeks maybe?) then does that indicate that no 'indigenous' person wanted it?

There are plenty of examples of Brits not taking jobs either because that type of work (cleaning, manual, service) is 'beneath' them, because the benefits system is too cushy or the pay doesn't make up for the benefits they'd lose.

 

[Robspur12]

Firstly, truly sorry to hear that you've been on the receiving end of racism - as a white british guy I appreciate that it's something I can probably never totally understand. And I appreciate that immigration etc is therefore a very personal topic for you.

However, I have to totally disagree with the underlined sentence. And I think sentiments like that eventually lead to more racism, because people who have genuine grievances are branded racists and become even more filled with anger.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting to live in a community where the majority of people speak the same language and are from a similar cultural background! As a 'young cosmopolitan' multiculturalism doesn't bother me, but that doesn't mean I think it shouldn't bother others. In the same way, if some traditional indigenous town in Guatemala (for example) had a rapid influx of White British people bringing their own culture and lifestyle, I would understand if they felt uncomfortable - wouldn't make them racist either.

I think this is such an important point, and underlies so much of this whole debacle. There is a difference between not wanting a single non-white british person in your community, and feeling uncomfortable having a significant number of people in your community come from an alien culture.

We will have to agree to disagree. For me the acid test of a strong community is a commitment to respecting the adopted country's culture, values and laws. Where you are from and what language you speak to other members of an immigrant community should not matter. Isn't freedom of expression one of the cornerstones of our culture?

 

[scaramanga]

Nationalisation of certain industries is very popular amongst the general population and there are examples of this in major western democracies. Hardly extreme. Very unlike your positions in my earlier post, which is basically the Tea-Party without religion.

Corbyn protested against Apartheid and for gay rights when these were seen as subjects for the loony left (and/or students). The man does not condone violence or racism of any kind, that much is obvious to those without an irrational dislike or agenda

He's clever enough to stay a step removed from the actual racism and violence himself but he keeps some disgusting company.

He's referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as friends, he's been a member of anti-semitic organisations, he appointed a close friend as Shadow Chancellor who supports the IRA.

He's far more closely linked to violence and racism than Farage is to the EDL and their like.

 

[Robspur12]

it's not that I think 17m are racist, it's that some racists now think 17m agree with them

That is a great comment galeforce.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Thanks. Is it fair to say that even though it's not a zero sum game, the net effect of immigration will always be some sort of reduction in job opportunities for people who were already here?

I can't imagine a situation where an immigrant doing low-skilled labour is so much better at the work, that they create an entirely new job themselves (through stimulating the economy). To be clear, I appreciate I'm talking in very simplistic terms here - just trying to break it down to as simple a model as possible.

I think that's why I struggle to get my head around economics - there are so many factors, interacting in multiple ways, that I struggle to understand in theory what the specific net effect might be. And it seems like it's just as hard to research empirically, for the same reason.

Is anyone able to list really clearly and explicitly the specific positive effects of an immigrant taking a job over someone who was already here? That will specifically lead to greater GDP than it would otherwise have been?

Try looking at it in the inverse - imagine a UK where there are no migrants allowed at all...There are no migrant workers willing to do the manual building jobs - digging holes, grinding floors - the jobs that don't require skills. Then the more skilled builders who have Romanians etc working for them don't have these people available either.

So how does this play out, what are the effects on society and the economy? Building anything becomes much more costly. Not only is it more expensive, it is hard to find builders at all to do the work. Whether its a new bathroom, or a massive new housing development for 500 flats. Both are now more difficult and costly. Economic growth is essentially the circulation of money. Money that sits still doesn't help economies. Movement and trade does.

So without many people to build new buildings, or refresh them, the housing market stagnates. People are not buying and selling homes, property prices go down, tax revenue goes down (stamp duty and VAT on building work), economic activity reduces. There are less developers building homes, because its not cost effective and they just can't get the people. There is a shortage of new offices too, as its hard to secure builders. Companies look at other locations.

Of course what would happen is with builders being paid a premium, more people would get skilled, and start to fill in. But probably not enough, and still no one wants to do the dirty manual hard jobs. Its below them, and they'll only do it for a price, or they quit after a week. What happens is the economy contracts and there is less need for builders anyway as no one is building and generating economic activity etc.

But I am no economist. I never studied economics. Maybe you can explain to me what a zero sum game is?

 

[the dza]

He's clever enough to stay a step removed from the actual racism and violence himself but he keeps some disgusting company.

He's referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as friends, he's been a member of anti-semitic organisations, he appointed a close friend as Shadow Chancellor who supports the IRA.

He's far more closely linked to violence and racism than Farage is to the EDL and their like.

So he's really a violent, racist mastermind masquerading as an anti-racist activist his whole life? Why?

Referring to Hamas and Hezbollah as 'friends' -- he's given an explanation for that and it's a choice you can make to go along with a smear campaign against the man or give him the benefit of the doubt given his life of activism for anti-racism and equal rights. And it's worth noting that he has also said: "Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree." http://www.channel4.com/news/jeremy-corbyn-i-wanted-hamas-to-be-part-of-the-debate

A member of anti-semitic organisations? I'd need you to tell me more, because I don't know anything about that. If you are referring to Deir Yassin Remembered and some guy called Paul Eisen, then that Tea-Party style attack on Corbyn is explained here: https://electronicintifada.net/blog...-semitism-attacks-jeremy-corbyn-are-dishonest

Again, the guy is a decent bloke even if you completely disagree with his politics. He is anti-racist, anti-violence to his bones, he's spent his life as an activist against racism/homophobia/war. Tea-Party style attacks by the right-wing press are the really disgusting thing in all of this. Smearing a decent man.

I think there are more racists in Farage's world than Corbyn's, but that's just my guess.

I think me and you will have to leave the Corbyn stuff there, because no matter what I post here, you will come back with a Daily Mail soundbite and that's a waste of time for both of us. Gonna watch some boxing.

On another note, has anybody seen Milo?

 

[glorygloryeze]

it's not that I think 17m are racist, it's that some racists now think 17m agree with them

Sorry, but since this result you've been spouting nonsense that it "has fired up the far right". What rot!

Maybe you should take a break for a few days and let yourself cool down; and stop pretending that the "possible rise of the far right" was a concern at all for you in the referendum. As you said before the vote you were voting with your wallet "as you always do".
Just be honest and say you are worried about how the result affects your wallet and stop this whining re the far right; at least you'll have your honesty and dignity..

 

[Roy1983]

Do you have Spanish relatives mate? Otherwise getting residency papers might be rather tough now. I mean, why should Spain accept immigrants? Genuine question and not a wind-up.

No I think you are on a wind up mate. Not that it's a concern of anyone's but I have many contacts plus I'll be going there to contribute to their system not sponge.

I'll respectfully leave it there Steff I've read some of your other comments and we're gonna argue so I'll leave it there.

 

[mephitis]

fudge ME! If nothing else this has got this knob to say something sensible

Sorry Roy not you! Missed the quote out

Talking of macarons this vote has got to peoples heads, Piers Morgan today:

"17 million people in Britain voted for Brexit. Are they all 'dumb racist bigots'? No. Remain, we lost, show some respect & get over it"

 

[glorygloryeze]

One of the lines I have heard repeatedly from many leavers was " I am not a racist but I went to the park or travelled on the bus in London and no one was speaking English it felt like I was in a foreign country."- Firstly why are you listening to other people's conversations? and secondly what you are saying is latent racism. For me there were only 2 tests for first time immigrants. Did they put back in at least as much as they take out of their adopted country. Did they respect the values, traditions and laws of the country they were immigrating into.
Now Imagine you are a British Asian walking into a pub in a provincial town in the uk, how uncomfortable you can feel because you are not like the others. I have been a victim of terrible racism both in the provincial towns and on the one occasion I was unlucky enough to visit North Wales. I am glad to say over the years the situation has got better but it was still there. I understand the intellectual arguments surrounding sovereignty (I don't agree with them necessarily ). I understand that there is much about the EU that needs reform especially its relentless urge to expand membership. I voted remain because of the economy and the opportunities being a member of the EU could give my children but also because I am afraid that England and Wales will once again become terribly insular and intolerant. This is something you can only understand if you have experienced this intolerance.

I think in this whole issue we have to be VERY careful not to link mistrust/dislike of the EU with racism.
Yes, there are racists who don't like immigrants and the EU (often one due to the other) but there are many reasons to dislike the EU and vote for exit that are irrelevant of racist attitudes and the like.
Those working in industries such as fishing dislike the EU for reasons that are irrelevant to racism and for any of those people to be labelled as 'racist' or 'insular' just causes more problems in the ongoing discussions etc.

Like you i have experienced racism in various forms in different places, but these racists can also be found in the remain camp plus across the EU and esp WITHIN the EU's leadership and bureaucracy: just look at the attitude towards Turkey's membership to see that (Turkey will never be allowed to join btw, all discussion on it is a big red herring from either side).
Be careful not to get into thinking that ALL people who wanted Britain to remain were all anti-racist liberals. Many racists actually want a United Europe so that they can 'join together to fight IS and the Chinese because the White Man is threatened by the brownies worldwide' (i paraphrase a bit here).

Anyway, i voted for Leave and i am also the son of immigrants. My reason? I don't want the European Superstate that is forming slowly and i would rather make a point to vote in or out a government here and not be part of something (Superstate) that is unworkable and ultimately even more undemocratic than some of our systems here.
The possible economic problems that may result (even though i believe these are being wholly exaggerated) are a price worth paying for me.

 

[Baleforce]

Sorry, but since this result you've been spouting nonsense that it "has fired up the far right". What rot!

Maybe you should take a break for a few days and let yourself cool down; and stop pretending that the "possible rise of the far right" was a concern at all for you in the referendum. As you said before the vote you were voting with your wallet "as you always do".
Just be honest and say you are worried about how the result affects your wallet and stop this whining re the far right; at least you'll have your honesty and dignity..

I've been naive, at the time I posted that I did not think a leave vote was possible, only a comfortable remain decision made any logical sense, it wasn't a concern before because I didn't see it coming

when the result was confirmed I was shocked, the conclusion I've come to for how this has happened has a large dollop of facism in it, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that

 

[Robspur12]

So he's really a violent, racist mastermind masquerading as an anti-racist activist his whole life? Why?

Referring to Hamas and Hezbollah as 'friends' -- he's given an explanation for that and it's a choice you can make to go along with a smear campaign against the man or give him the benefit of the doubt given his life of activism for anti-racism and equal rights. And it's worth noting that he has also said: "Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree." http://www.channel4.com/news/jeremy-corbyn-i-wanted-hamas-to-be-part-of-the-debate

A member of anti-semitic organisations? I'd need you to tell me more, because I don't know anything about that. If you are referring to Deir Yassin Remembered and some guy called Paul Eisen, then that Tea-Party style attack on Corbyn is explained here: https://electronicintifada.net/blog...-semitism-attacks-jeremy-corbyn-are-dishonest

Again, the guy is a decent bloke even if you completely disagree with his politics. He is anti-racist, anti-violence to his bones, he's spent his life as an activist against racism/homophobia/war. Tea-Party style attacks by the right-wing press are the really disgusting thing in all of this. Smearing a decent man.

I think there are more racists in Farage's world than Corbyn's, but that's just my guess.

I think me and you will have to leave the Corbyn stuff there, because no matter what I post here, you will come back with a Daily Mail soundbite and that's a waste of time for both of us. Gonna watch some boxing.

On another note, has anybody seen Milo?

Mate, I agree that racism and antisemitism are wide of the mark when it comes to sticks to beat Corbyn with. The likelihood is that he is a decent man at heart. Nevertheless he lacks leadership qualities. He comes across as a mumbling,indecisive old man and he is leadinf the Labour Party into electoral oblivion. I put a lot of blame on "leave" winning the vote squarely on his shoulders. The margin was so tight if only he had gone out to the labour heartlands of the NE and Wales and made a better case for what he said he believed in. Much as I was not a fan of Cameron, he earned my respect with the way he fought to remain in the EU. Corbyn was conspicuous by his ambivalence. Cameron has fallen on his sword so should Corbyn. We need strong leadership in the Labour Party with the Tories lurching to the right.

 

[Roy1983]

One of the lines I have heard repeatedly from many leavers was " I am not a racist but I went to the park or travelled on the bus in London and no one was speaking English it felt like I was in a foreign country."- Firstly why are you listening to other people's conversations? and secondly what you are saying is latent racism. For me there were only 2 tests for first time immigrants. Did they put back in at least as much as they take out of their adopted country. Did they respect the values, traditions and laws of the country they were immigrating into.
Now Imagine you are a British Asian walking into a pub in a provincial town in the uk, how uncomfortable you can feel because you are not like the others. I have been a victim of terrible racism both in the provincial towns and on the one occasion I was unlucky enough to visit North Wales. I am glad to say over the years the situation has got better but it was still there. I understand the intellectual arguments surrounding sovereignty (I don't agree with them necessarily ). I understand that there is much about the EU that needs reform especially its relentless urge to expand membership. I voted remain because of the economy and the opportunities being a member of the EU could give my children but also because I am afraid that England and Wales will once again become terribly insular and intolerant. This is something you can only understand if you have experienced this intolerance.

I have to take an exception to your first sentence. I've lived in Tottenham 3/4 of my life (Most of you come to where I live 19 times every 9 months or so). I see it every single day. If I walk from my family home to Bruce Grove I hear up to 10 different languages.

Let me ask you a question? Why is it wrong that I don't like that?

 

[parklane1]

Sorry, but since this result you've been spouting nonsense that it "has fired up the far right". What rot!

Maybe you should take a break for a few days and let yourself cool down; and stop pretending that the "possible rise of the far right" was a concern at all for you in the referendum. As you said before the vote you were voting with your wallet "as you always do".
Just be honest and say you are worried about how the result affects your wallet and stop this whining re the far right; at least you'll have your honesty and dignity..

Glad i am not the only one to notice that.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I've been naive, at the time I posted that I did not think a leave vote was possible, only a comfortable remain decision made any logical sense, it wasn't a concern before because I didn't see it coming

when the result was confirmed I was shocked, the conclusion I've come to for how this has happened has a large dollop of facism in it, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that

Nonsense.
Yes, some facists hate the EU, hate foreigners etc and voted out, but MANY many others don't like the EU due to a perception of creeping overarching Government by proxy, plus some issues of how inefficient it is regarding getting trade deals elsewhere, not to mention some are bitter as to what they perceive as how their industries were destroyed by certain policies that were inconsistently applied.

If you SERIOUSLY think most of the anti-EU feeling is based on fascism then you're misguided even more than you portray..

 

[Robspur12]

I think in this whole issue we have to be VERY careful not to link mistrust/dislike of the EU with racism.
Yes, there are racists who don't like immigrants and the EU (often one due to the other) but there are many reasons to dislike the EU and vote for exit that are irrelevant of racist attitudes and the like.
Those working in industries such as fishing dislike the EU for reasons that are irrelevant to racism and for any of those people to be labelled as 'racist' or 'insular' just causes more problems in the ongoing discussions etc.

Like you i have experienced racism in various forms in different places, but these racists can also be found in the remain camp plus across the EU and esp WITHIN the EU's leadership and bureaucracy: just look at the attitude towards Turkey's membership to see that (Turkey will never be allowed to join btw, all discussion on it is a big red herring from either side).
Be careful not to get into thinking that ALL people who wanted Britain to remain were all anti-racist liberals. Many racists actually want a United Europe so that they can 'join together to fight IS and the Chinese because the White Man is threatened by the brownies worldwide' (i paraphrase a bit here).

Anyway, i voted for Leave and i am also the son of immigrants. My reason? I don't want the European Superstate that is forming slowly and i would rather make a point to vote in or out a government here and not be part of something (Superstate) that is unworkable and ultimately even more undemocratic than some of our systems here.
The possible economic problems that may result (even though i believe these are being wholly exaggerated) are a price worth paying for me.

Mate I know very well that many of the people who voted leave were not racists. I am sorry if I appeared to conflate the 2. In fact there are very good reasons to vote out, the EU is far from perfect. However, we should not also deny for a significant proportion of leavers Xenophobia played a large part in their voting choice. Additionally a "leave" victory especially if Scotland decide to go too, could leave England and Wales very isolated and that breeds an insular and potentially intolerant mindset. My father came to this country in 1969. The national front was far stronger in those days. The country has come a long way since then but some of the rhetoric I heard from the leavers, Farage's poster about Syrian refugees, the murder of Jo Cox, and the far right regularly marching in the NE and Yorkshire holding up "refugees not welcome" placards, left me holding my head in my hands.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Mate, I agree that racism and antisemitism are wide of the mark when it comes to sticks to beat Corbyn with. The likelihood is that he is a decent man at heart. Nevertheless he lacks leadership qualities. He comes across as a mumbling,indecisive old man and he is leadinf the Labour Party into electoral oblivion. I put a lot of blame on "leave" winning the vote squarely on his shoulders. The margin was so tight if only he had gone out to the labour heartlands of the NE and Wales and made a better case for what he said he believed in. Much as I was not a fan of Cameron, he earned my respect with the way he fought to remain in the EU. Corbyn was conspicuous by his ambivalence. Cameron has fallen on his sword so should Corbyn. We need strong leadership in the Labour Party with the Tories lurching to the right.

Corbyn was poor at pushing the Remain vote because he himself deep down is a Brexiter. It is well known in political circles that this is the case.

If there's one thing you could accuse him of it's not being two-faced enough to front the Labour Remain campaign and show as much (false) energy for it as Cameron did when he did his "i'm gonna show those EU bureaucrats what's what and tell them we'll leave if we don't get what we want because we are GREAT Britain after all"

 

[SpurMeUp]

https://twitter.com/x/status/746760100396810241

So this guy was campaigning for Leave. But didn't think beforehand that it was foolhardy having a referendum based on thin air?

 

[Robspur12]

Corbyn was poor at pushing the Remain vote because he himself deep down is a Brexiter. It is well known in political circles that this is the case.

If there's one thing you could accuse him of it's not being two-faced enough to front the Labour Remain campaign and show as much (false) energy for it as Cameron did when he did his "i'm gonna show those EU bureaucrats what's what and tell them we'll leave if we don't get what we want because we are GREAT Britain after all"

Actually mate I agree with the person who said that if Cameron had really believed that remaining in the EU was essential he would never have tied his party to a referendum.

 

[glasgowspur]

Sorry, but since this result you've been spouting nonsense that it "has fired up the far right". What rot!

Maybe you should take a break for a few days and let yourself cool down; and stop pretending that the "possible rise of the far right" was a concern at all for you in the referendum. As you said before the vote you were voting with your wallet "as you always do".
Just be honest and say you are worried about how the result affects your wallet and stop this whining re the far right; at least you'll have your honesty and dignity..

So the leave voters that voted so because immigrants are taking their jobs aren't voting with their wallets either?
I'm ambivalent about the whole thing and have no axe to grind with either side because regardless of whichever side won nothing will change.
The whole thing is perfection and while the general public are busy with these kinds of arguments politicians are busy figuring out how they can keep themselves in a job.