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Politics, politics, politics

thfcsteff said:
Whatever happens, do not underestimate how the UK suddenly looks to others; like a small, seperatist 'fudge off we don't need you' country.
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I was worried about this, more than alot of things, but the reaction has been ok, our German friends are ok with us, the Dutch are scratching their chins thoughtfully as are the French.
 
I find this thread encouraging as it's got people to debate issues and take an interest in politics, I don't agree with all I read but the fact that people can be bothered to take part is good. People have, (rightly in my opinion) raised worries about far right factions, but it's only by people taking an active part in politics these groups can be stopped having a greater influence in countries, they take advantage of the apathy of the general public.
 
My mate offered the ultimate irony. He might well have to now marry his Romanian girlfriend for EU status! Watch a whole new 'line of commerce' emerge!!! Oh the irony!
 
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
I find this thread encouraging as it's got people to debate issues and take an interest in politics, I don't agree with all I read but the fact that people can be bothered to take part is good. People have, (rightly in my opinion) raised worries about far right factions, but it's only by people taking an active part in politics these groups can be stopped having a greater influence in countries, they take advantage of the apathy of the general public.
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Well said. A VERY civil discussion and exchange overall. Good stuff.
 
Today was my first day back at work after the EU Ref. There were a fair few people who had previously not shown any interest in politics and voted in something for the first time. That's a positive. I hope they all vote at the next general election.

What isn't so positive is that some of them voted and didn't have any rhyme or reason behind their vote. These lads voted out. I don't mind whichever way people voted, I think both sides had pros and cons, but at least give it some thought ffs.
 
Hotshot-Tottenham said:
I can see how they may be perceived as biased depending on your position, but I'd say they're pretty careful when it comes to fact checking.
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Yesterday they posted that JPM were shifting 2000 jobs to Dublin which turned out to be a rehash of a weeks old claim made by JPM's Dublin manager in an attempt to win work from London.

The referendum news feed on the BBC is nothing short of a forced narrative of snarky "Told you so" remainers. Do you think it's a coincidence that they've been scouring the country for regretful leavers who are all the most swivel-eyed yokel-sounding fudgewits on the planet? I know there's a lot of backward fudges who voted leave but it's the equivalent of using hedge fund managers to make the remain case.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Immigration doesn't help working classes get jobs. Not directly anyway. If you're a builder, and there are 3 other immigrant builders who are good at their job, quoting less than you, of course it does you no good.

What it does do, is stimulate the economy. Building is made easier, as there are more people available, its cheaper to build, and the quality improves. Which stimulates the economy, makes the UK wealthier, which in theory feeds back into communities, and creates even more building jobs. To be fair this has actually been the case with the UK, our economy is so focused on the housing market. People buying, doing up, selling, building homes etc. It wouldn't have been possible without migrant workers - many doing the unskilled building jobs and it stimulated the housing market leading to more jobs. Without migrant workers, we would need to train more people, which hasn't happened, and few Brits want the sh1t dirty jobs, so yes it has been essential to our economy.
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Thanks. Is it fair to say that even though it's not a zero sum game, the net effect of immigration will always be some sort of reduction in job opportunities for people who were already here?

I can't imagine a situation where an immigrant doing low-skilled labour is so much better at the work, that they create an entirely new job themselves (through stimulating the economy). To be clear, I appreciate I'm talking in very simplistic terms here - just trying to break it down to as simple a model as possible.

I think that's why I struggle to get my head around economics - there are so many factors, interacting in multiple ways, that I struggle to understand in theory what the specific net effect might be. And it seems like it's just as hard to research empirically, for the same reason.

Is anyone able to list really clearly and explicitly the specific positive effects of an immigrant taking a job over someone who was already here? That will specifically lead to greater GDP than it would otherwise have been?
 
scaramanga said:
Yesterday they posted that JPM were shifting 2000 jobs to Dublin which turned out to be a rehash of a weeks old claim made by JPM's Dublin manager in an attempt to win work from London.

The referendum news feed on the BBC is nothing short of a forced narrative of snarky "Told you so" remainers. Do you think it's a coincidence that they've been scouring the country for regretful leavers who are all the most swivel-eyed yokel-sounding fudgewits on the planet? I know there's a lot of backward fudges who voted leave but it's the equivalent of using hedge fund managers to make the remain case.
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At least that gave me a laugh.
 
One serious point, I know Farage rubbed people up the wrong way but I think remain lost votes because the endorsement of Beckham, Izzard, Geldof and Cordon, especially Geldof.

The last thing the detached want are the rich telling them what to do, especially those in LA, or Geldof the multi millionairre Irishman
 
elltrev said:
Thanks. Is it fair to say that even though it's not a zero sum game, the net effect of immigration will always be some sort of reduction in job opportunities for people who were already here?

I can't imagine a situation where an immigrant doing low-skilled labour is so much better at the work, that they create an entirely new job themselves (through stimulating the economy). To be clear, I appreciate I'm talking in very simplistic terms here - just trying to break it down to as simple a model as possible.

I think that's why I struggle to get my head around economics - there are so many factors, interacting in multiple ways, that I struggle to understand in theory what the specific net effect might be. And it seems like it's just as hard to research empirically, for the same reason.

Is anyone able to list really clearly and explicitly the specific positive effects of an immigrant taking a job over someone who was already here? That will specifically lead to greater GDP than it would otherwise have been?
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It doesn't work for any one individual, but over larger numbers it does work.

We've had massive immigration over the last few years and unemployment is at its lowest for as long as I can remember. People may complain about downward pressure on wages but living standards have never been so high.
 
Grays_1890 said:
One serious point, I know Farage rubbed people up the wrong way but I think remain lost votes because the endorsement of Beckham, Izzard, Geldof and Cordon, especially Geldof.

The last thing the detached want are the rich telling them what to do, especially those in LA, or Geldof the multi millionairre Irishman
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And on the other side, doesn't it scare you that Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Britain First, EDL etc supported Leave? Without having the foresight you personally have had?

And Putin, obvs, but he's my boy so cross us at your peril.
 
AuroRaman said:
And on the other side, doesn't it scare you that Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Britain First, EDL etc supported Leave? Without having the foresight you personally have had?

And Putin, obvs, but he's my boy so cross us at your peril.
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So did Corbyn.

He's no less extreme than anyone you've listed.
 
AuroRaman said:
And on the other side, doesn't it scare you that Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Britain First, EDL etc supported Leave? Without having the foresight you personally have had?

And Putin, obvs, but he's my boy so cross us at your peril.
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It worries me to the point of being cast as guilty my association, because these people are macarons.

Talking of macarons this vote has got to peoples heads, Piers Morgan today:

"17 million people in Britain voted for Brexit. Are they all 'dumb racist bigots'? No. Remain, we lost, show some respect & get over it"
 
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