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Politics, politics, politics

What has got me throughout the whole campaign is that, if Junker and other EU leaders had wanted the UK to stay, why did he keep coming out with the same rhetoric: "no new negotiations", "you got the maximum we were willing to give" (not a lot), "no further reforms". Following the result most EU leaders are navel-gazing and stating that reforms are now needed. They always were, hence the result...

The BBC reporting has also been atrociously biased. They failed to have on their front page the day before the vote that the German BDI (CBI equivalent) stated applying tariffs would be foolish. They now give massive coverage to remain campaigners' whining. Their graphs for the FTSE on Friday showed the day before and that day only. Had they shown the last week, they would have seen that the FTSE had increased over the days before the vote as bankers gambled (with our money, no less) on a Remain win. The gamble didn't pay off. On the 12 June the FTSE was at 5925, on the 24th it was 6138...

The currency was always going to dip on a 'leave' vote, mainly because prior to the referendum everyone planned for a 'remain' win. Self fulfilling prophecy.

I just hope everyone can pull together to see what happens. No-one will ever know if it was the 'right' result as there is no comparator.
 
scaramanga said:
Great, only 15.5M to go ;)
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Even if you got 17 million (naturally this won't happen) of course it wouldn't change the referendum. What it does, is it may influence Brexit negotiations. No one on here has predicted how Brexit will play out. That is the fascinating thing for me. The Nigel Farage Brexit looks very different to the Boris Brexit. Of course it doesn't just depend on say the PM, but also the existing EU, and what they will accept. So much to be decided, and the UK will be unstable in the interim - in a financial sense.

@richie_spur I do agree the media has been biased. They are all London based, and somewhat hypocritical. For example, The Times, scathing now, pro Brexit in the run up!

Re. the FTSE, you have to factor in the value of Sterling. Take that into account and the FTSE lost 11% yesterday when valued against the stable Dollar. A massive amount in any terms.
 
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richie_spur said:
What has got me throughout the whole campaign is that, if Junker and other EU leaders had wanted the UK to stay, why did he keep coming out with the same rhetoric: "no new negotiations", "you got the maximum we were willing to give" (not a lot), "no further reforms". Following the result most EU leaders are navel-gazing and stating that reforms are now needed. They always were, hence the result...

The BBC reporting has also been atrociously biased. They failed to have on their front page the day before the vote that the German BDI (CBI equivalent) stated applying tariffs would be foolish. They now give massive coverage to remain campaigners' whining. Their graphs for the FTSE on Friday showed the day before and that day only. Had they shown the last week, they would have seen that the FTSE had increased over the days before the vote as bankers gambled (with our money, no less) on a Remain win. The gamble didn't pay off. On the 12 June the FTSE was at 5925, on the 24th it was 6138...

The currency was always going to dip on a 'leave' vote, mainly because prior to the referendum everyone planned for a 'remain' win. Self fulfilling prophecy.

I just hope everyone can pull together to see what happens. No-one will ever know if it was the 'right' result as there is no comparator.
Click to expand...
BBC coverage has been nothing short of disgusting.
 
If you look at the geography of the votes each area voted pretty much as expected without campaigning. I think the numbers would have changed slightly had remain worked on their campaign better. Cameron was in my opinion terrible and is seen as untrustworthy as is Osbourne and Corbyns campaign was "Vote remain....well if you wanna that is"

For the geographical reason I ultimately think the emphasis put on the leave campaign is over inflated and in actual fact remain just ran a terrible campaign.

When you break it down there were no real shocks, only in the margins but then again 20%+ didn't vote and you could argue that the don't knows on the day voted in rather than into the unknown.

I will go back to what I said earlier that the fall out is not sitting well with me one bit. There is an undeniable attitude from remain that their vote was worth two of anyone else. What gives them the right, what gives the remain the right to ask for a revote, had they won would leave have been afforded the same level? Of course not.

A banker may vote for different reason than a farmer, a train driver different from an oil rigger, a marketing exec different to a nurse, someone who is unemployed different to someone employed, someone with kids to those without, its a personal choice, one that I believe in many was made long before any campaigns, but who the hell is anyone to tell anyone that their reasoning is worth less than theirs? That’s where I think the country is acting shamefully and its nothing but snobbery rearing its head. I honestly believe you could sense it in the campaign itself anyway, give people the vote and tell them they should vote remain, the fact people are trying to our Corbyn for not being effective enough proves that, why should he have been effective? Why bother giving the vote in the first place if someone is going to lose their job for not persuading enough people to vote one way, that in itself stinks.

Rather than blaming the people who voted blame the people that 1 – Run the country and 2 – placed the UK in this position in the first place, oh they are one and the same.
 
the dza said:
He probably thought that we had that and voted against it, so "phuck it, I'm off!"
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We didn't though, we only had free trade with the EU and massive restrictions against anyone else. We had restrictive regulations and a commitment to keep topping up the salaries of their lazy workforces.

We had an EU consistently trying to chip away at any competitive advantage we had and pushing through reforms via the back door when we made it clear we didn't want them.

If we accept free movement then I think we can get free trade with none of the downside. Problem is, it will be political suicide for anyone who does it because a lot of people thought this referendum was about immigration.
 
scaramanga said:
BBC coverage has been nothing short of disgusting.
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as was the programming across the channels before the vote.

As for the age split in votes, older people have more life experience and have most to lose with regards pensions being linked to the stock market and lack of job choices in later life.

The older generation have done a solid for the spoilt youth who frankly should be working more, part of the reason we need so much immigration is because the young has not been prepared to work or felt some work was beneath them. Now we have the ability to taylor immigration to the countries need.
 
richie_spur said:
What has got me throughout the whole campaign is that, if Junker and other EU leaders had wanted the UK to stay, why did he keep coming out with the same rhetoric: "no new negotiations", "you got the maximum we were willing to give" (not a lot), "no further reforms". Following the result most EU leaders are navel-gazing and stating that reforms are now needed. They always were, hence the result...

The BBC reporting has also been atrociously biased. They failed to have on their front page the day before the vote that the German BDI (CBI equivalent) stated applying tariffs would be foolish. They now give massive coverage to remain campaigners' whining. Their graphs for the FTSE on Friday showed the day before and that day only. Had they shown the last week, they would have seen that the FTSE had increased over the days before the vote as bankers gambled (with our money, no less) on a Remain win. The gamble didn't pay off. On the 12 June the FTSE was at 5925, on the 24th it was 6138...

The currency was always going to dip on a 'leave' vote, mainly because prior to the referendum everyone planned for a 'remain' win. Self fulfilling prophecy.

I just hope everyone can pull together to see what happens. No-one will ever know if it was the 'right' result as there is no comparator.
Click to expand...

Your last line is the clincher. But also lets not forget the reporting by The Sun/Express/Mail and also other Murdoch-owned media pre-vote, many years worth of reporting to promote false information.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Where have the Leave leaders gone? All those who preached Leave have laid too low for my liking. What a fuking shambles.
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taking some well deserved time off and discussing the future behind closed doors to give us a good deal for the future

what is it you want a live Twitter feed of negotiations? feel life is not like that. Did you not say most of what the EU does is boring good work. Well that is what leave will be doing, the work of governments. Great thing is we can vote these people that make decisions in or out.

Plus I do not know where in the world you are but in the UK it is the weekend.
 
scaramanga said:
If we accept free movement then I think we can get free trade with none of the downside. Problem is, it will be political suicide for anyone who does it because a lot of people thought this referendum was about immigration.
Click to expand...

I sense a bit of backtrack on your pre-vote bullish position. You were thinking no free movement, and free trade.
 
scaramanga said:
Surely it's not beyond your comprehension that I believe in leaving because it fits my beliefs but voted for staying because it benefits my wallet.

My morals aren't driven by my pocket, they're based on what I believe is right.
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Ha, ha. Who was it who said," I have morals, if you don't like these ones, I have others"?
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
taking some well deserved time off and discussing the future behind closed doors to give us a good deal for the future

what is it you want a live Twitter feed of negotiations? feel life is not like that. Did you not say most of what the EU does is boring good work. Well that is what leave will be doing, the work of governments. Great thing is we can vote these people that make decisions in or out.

Plus I do not know where in the world you are but in the UK it is the weekend.
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Fair point mate. Just when there's an election, general election, the winners come out, set out their stall, and the country has direction. The suspicion is, Boris didn't think we'd actually Leave! Over 50% of those voted Leave didn't either! Yes its the weekend, but there is a lot of gonads to get through now. Instability. Negotiation. In the meantime, real government, sorting schools etc will be left alone.

I hope you are right, that they can do the boring necessary stuff and get us a deal with the EU. It won't make UKIP happy. People will read the Sun and think they've been sold a pup. But you get the impression many only understand the implications of Leave now we've voted. Its a messy messy situation at the moment. Ironically we need Boris, as he could bring some calm, yet he's hardly shown his face. Who will stand up and lead now?
 
Grays_1890 said:
If you look at the geography of the votes each area voted pretty much as expected without campaigning. I think the numbers would have changed slightly had remain worked on their campaign better. Cameron was in my opinion terrible and is seen as untrustworthy as is Osbourne and Corbyns campaign was "Vote remain....well if you wanna that is"

For the geographical reason I ultimately think the emphasis put on the leave campaign is over inflated and in actual fact remain just ran a terrible campaign.

When you break it down there were no real shocks, only in the margins but then again 20%+ didn't vote and you could argue that the don't knows on the day voted in rather than into the unknown.

I will go back to what I said earlier that the fall out is not sitting well with me one bit. There is an undeniable attitude from remain that their vote was worth two of anyone else. What gives them the right, what gives the remain the right to ask for a revote, had they won would leave have been afforded the same level? Of course not.

A banker may vote for different reason than a farmer, a train driver different from an oil rigger, a marketing exec different to a nurse, someone who is unemployed different to someone employed, someone with kids to those without, its a personal choice, one that I believe in many was made long before any campaigns, but who the hell is anyone to tell anyone that their reasoning is worth less than theirs? That’s where I think the country is acting shamefully and its nothing but snobbery rearing its head. I honestly believe you could sense it in the campaign itself anyway, give people the vote and tell them they should vote remain, the fact people are trying to our Corbyn for not being effective enough proves that, why should he have been effective? Why bother giving the vote in the first place if someone is going to lose their job for not persuading enough people to vote one way, that in itself stinks.

Rather than blaming the people who voted blame the people that 1 – Run the country and 2 – placed the UK in this position in the first place, oh they are one and the same.
Click to expand...

Personally, Farage's 4am triumphalism niggled me.

Apparently I'm not an ordinary, decent or good person for wanting to remain. Apparently no shots were fired.

I think perhaps the feeling of inequity that some of the Remainers have is down to the type of campaign that Leave ran. The spin and misinformation seemed rife. It got distilled down to immigration. And now we have the backtracking from the likes of Hannan. Some of the Leavers were sold a pig in a poke.

And then the reports of the regretful Leavers; anecdotal, sure, but enough different examples to crop up on multiple news outlets to become a theme.

I'm personally incredulous that people voted Leave when they didn't really want to, that they didn't think it would make a difference, that they thought it would be a protest vote, that they readily admit they didn't know what they were doing or the effect it would have.

And I'm angry at Cameron for promising the referendum to protect his own interests. He was complacent and arrogant. I don't think matters of this complexity and importance should be directly left to the people.

And when we're told to deal with it, live with it, get on with it - you must remember that this is something permanent. It's not a general election where we get another go in 5 years time. This is it now. So a little humility from the Leave campaign, perhaps even a little compassion might just go some way to toning down the rhetoric and the response.
 
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