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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
All your words certainly not mine!

I'm saying that Remain people are not defeatist, just feel that logic was not represented in the vote. How does that relate to the outcome of the vote? Two separate things. We don't know if Brexit is a big deal, how it will effect us all. We will find out. Will I get over it? I am footloose and free. I am considering moving part of my business abroad, but have been for sometime. Brexit actually help as we need coders, computer programmers, which are extremely expensive in London. As for uneducated village idiot bellends, I don't think that. Everyone has their own reality, their own beliefs etc. and I don't think modern politics represents anyone too well. Change is needed, personally I don't think becoming isolationist is the answer however. in otherwords its a lot easier to blame 'the other', the external EU for the things that need to change, than actually address the things that need to change here at home.
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Why do you consider leaving a trading bloc of 27 countries to join one of 170 isolationist?
 
SpurMeUp said:
If it was "the worst barrier to trade in existence" why did the UK prosper within it? Our wealth and security increased massively since joining yet its the worst barrier to trade? It just does not stack up.

Prosper is a loose term though is it not? Did we reach our fullest potential? Who can say?

The whole thing is perfection imo, and a waste of government money and energy that could have been spent on righting some of the wrongs that are occurring. Instead we'll face months or years of re-writing laws (that in most instances don't need changing), political upheaval (which is needed, but probably won't result in what people want just the same old with a different veneer) and quite possibly economic contraction across the UK - less money in peoples pockets. We have had some of the lowest unemployment rates in recent years, will this continue post Brexit?

The country has had a good run in the EU and wasted money regardless, so whats the difference? You will only have to rewrite laws once so its a short pain for longer term good, you would also assume Cameron (if he remained at number 10) would just maintain some of the EU's good laws so the transition was smooth and change those that needed to be changed?
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scaramanga said:
As for unemployment, I don't know if you've noticed but the bottom end of the wage market is in desperate need of downward pressure. I think a small increase in unemployment will go towards repairing the damage Comrade Osborne has done recently.
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But if unskilled migrants from the EU are no longer allowed to come and compete for jobs at the bottom end of the wage market, that negates the downward pressure created by higher unemployment. The minimum wage increases aren't going to go away, too many in the 17 million won't have voted for a paycut.

If unskilled migration is all but over, then the bottom end of the wage market is gonna go up. A plus point of leaving for sure, and that is the driver of all those old labour voters turning out for leave.
 
Leave campaign last week: Don't listen to idiot experts like Mark Carney

Leave campaign today: Don't panic, things are a little uncertain but Mark Carney know's what he's doing
 
galeforce said:
Leave campaign last week: Don't listen to idiot experts like Mark Carney

Leave campaign today: Don't panic, things are a little uncertain but Mark Carney know's what he's doing
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Had Mark Carney continued to spout the nonsense he did last week I would have continued to criticise him. In fact, he's done a complete 180.

Shame he's so politicised, he'd be an excellent governor otherwise.
 
the dza said:
But if unskilled migrants from the EU are no longer allowed to come and compete for jobs at the bottom end of the wage market, that negates the downward pressure created by higher unemployment. The minimum wage increases aren't going to go away, too many in the 17 million won't have voted for a paycut.

If unskilled migration is all but over, then the bottom end of the wage market is gonna go up. A plus point of leaving for sure, and that is the driver of all those old labour voters turning out for leave.
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Why would unskilled immigration be over? If we need some deflationary wage pressure we can just increase immigration levels.
 
scaramanga said:
Why do you consider leaving a trading bloc of 27 countries to join one of 170 isolationist?
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Its a naive position. Of course we need representation at the WTO! We need a seat at that table. Any Brexiter will confirm that. In trade, when agreements are made, you need to represent your own. That is the point.

A simple question: if the WTO agreements are so effective, why do countries spend so much time and energy negotiating non-WTO trade agreements? Why would they bother?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Its a naive position. Of course we need representation at the WTO! We need a seat at that table. Any Brexiter will confirm that. In trade, when agreements are made, you need to represent your own. That is the point.

A simple question: if the WTO agreements are so effective, why do countries spend so much time and energy negotiating non-WTO trade agreements? Why would they bother?
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The WTO agreements are lower every time and are unilateral. We could join in and use our bargaining power to accelerate them but my point was that the WTO has (real) free trade in mind, unlike the protectionist EU. It's fighting our corner whether we turn up or not.

When people negotiate lower tariffs it's usually because they have one or two huge exports that they want a lower tariff on. We could do that, but we'll still be better off using WTO standard tariffs than we were paying the EU.
 
So, the BofE has promised to keep liquidity high, the Fed has, as has the ECB.

Can Germany really afford to keep the rest of Europe afloat right now?
 
scaramanga said:
Why has China's? They're not in the EU.

Correlation ≠ causation. Just because we were in the EU and we prospered doesn't mean the EU made us prosper. Spain, Greece and Italy are all in the EU and they're fudgeed.


Holidays have been ridiculously cheap for a long time. A few % on the £ won't make them unaffordable.

We're still very influential. The UK has the 5th (or 4th if you don't count Germany twice) largest economy in the world, that's not inconsequential by anyone's standards - not China, not the US and certainly not Germany and its EU minions. Now we can also trade freely with countries further down the chain making our compound goods far more competitive than the EU can.


It's perfection that the majority voting wanted whether you like it or not. Those laws absolutely do need rewriting, I can tell you for a fact as I've had to scrutinise many of them over the last 10 years or so. I'm glad we're able to listen to our own businesses and manufacturers rather than vested interests from other countries when rewriting them.

As for unemployment, I don't know if you've noticed but the bottom end of the wage market is in desperate need of downward pressure. I think a small increase in unemployment will go towards repairing the damage Comrade Osborne has done recently.


All of those things will happen - it would make no sense for any of those other countries not to. The US might feel a little protectionist but the others certainly won't.


We don't need a seat there we just need to be a member - which we are twice. Once individually and once as a member of the EU - when our EU membership drops we will still be a member. I see no need to take part in WTO discussions, their aims (low barriers to open markets) are the same as ours.

I would expect the EU deals to take first precedent seeing as it directly affects the economy and that's what voters have repeatedly stated is the most important factor in voting.


They're talking down the post-Brexit economy - basically a big "I told you so". Meanwhile Mark Carney and Comrade Osborne are busy repairing the damage they've done over the past few weeks with their dramatic predictions.
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  • Correlation does not = causation. But there are reasons that China has advanced. As there are that the UK has. Part of the UKs advance, economists believe, has been free trade. Not WTO trade. Or Common Wealth trade but trade with and via the EU.
  • If the EU was a "barrier" to trade. The "worst" barrier, our economy would have suffered, not advanced post entry.
  • What is wrong with cheap holidays!? Why would you want them to stop?
  • Depends on how you measure it. UK is 9th largest if measured differently. Its not ridiculous to make logical inferences that outside the EU, we will drop down this list in time. Not by much, but a measured decline.
  • Its not perfection that the majority voted this way. That's not a shock at all. The democratic processes is far from perfect.
  • Can you tell me which laws you have scrutinized that need re-writing?
  • So its good to have people out of work! Seriously? Which economics school believes this? More people claiming benefits, yeah sure that's exactly what the UK needs.
  • The US said: the UK will join the back of the queue re. trade agreements. How are you so sure we will now jump that queue?
  • WTO already addressed in other post. Of course we need to have the seat now we're out the EU. Absurd not to!
 
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scaramanga said:
Why would unskilled immigration be over? If we need some deflationary wage pressure we can just increase immigration levels.
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The referendum was won/lost on this issue. We won't be importing unskilled migrants if we have an increase in our own unemployment, that'd be electoral suicide. Oh and hey, have a wage cut on that new minimum wage! hahaha, dear GHod, what bizzarro world is Prime Minister Boris going to run on that?!
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
By definition a minority thought that. Remainers i feel may not be able to shake the feeling of defeat....akin to Ronaldo's thoughts on the Icelanders ie 'what are these no-bodies gonna do...' oh hold up, wtf (envisage the Ronaldo face of disgust)

I mean will you get over it @SpurMeUp, you appear quite aghast, are the leavers just a bunch of uneducated, village idiot bellends?
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Absolutely not all of them. I spoke to plenty of people who wanted to leave that were able to give me fair reasoned opinions and arguments as to why it makes sense. However, there were definitely a much higher % of uneducated, village idiot bellends on the Leave side than the remain. And most of them voted leave because of 'foreigners innit'

One of the guys on my Facebook feed last night who spent all day trying to convince everyone to leave posted (whilst watching the results come through) to say 'What are Gibraltar doing voting in OUR referendum???'. Another girl proudly voted no because apparently 'The EU took GHod out of schools and that's why teenagers don't respect their elders anymore'

I mean come the fudge on.................
 
Prosper is a loose term though is it not? Did we reach our fullest potential? Who can say?

I agree we can't say. We do know we were a much smaller economy. We've become a service based economy. There are concerns that services will not be allowed trade with the EU unless we become like Norway - have free moment of people etc

The country has had a good run in the EU and wasted money regardless, so whats the difference? You will only have to rewrite laws once so its a short pain for longer term good, you would also assume Cameron (if he remained at number 10) would just maintain some of the EU's good laws so the transition was smooth and change those that needed to be changed

So we need to sort the money waste here, in this country. How does Brexit help?

Cameron can not do anything now. He has to stay in place today, as the financial melt down would be worse with him quitting. But he has no mandate, can not negotiate with the EU, and has to go. Osborne too. Many of the EU laws will probably stay, they are deeply entrenched in many parts of UK policy and not harmful to the UK (contrary to what Scara and others suggest).
 
The vote to leave was the easy part. The challenge for the triumphalist of the leave vote is yet to come. They will need to deal with the complex mess that an exit will cause. And who will lead this effort...Boris Johnson. o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O
 
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