Politics, politics, politics

[Baleforce]

I see "the establishment" as the elite group who have access to the media to tell us what to think, whether they are on the right, left or centre

so where do you go for information?

 

[StephenH]

We are not called 'little Britain' for nothing!

 

[scaramanga]

So the £ has rallied, the FTSE has rallied and whilst the € is steady, European stocks are diving faster than the FTSE did this morning.

Whether or not staying in was better, it appears that leaving might be better than being left.

 

[scaramanga]

Win of the day:

My wife just called to remind me that I have a few hundred € at home that I hadn't got around to changing from our last holiday. Nice exchange rate at the moment

 

[parklane1]

So the £ has rallied, the FTSE has rallied and whilst the € is steady, European stocks are diving faster than the FTSE did this morning.

Whether or not staying in was better, it appears that leaving might be better than being left.

Get with the program mate its a bloody disaster

 

[Baleforce]

Win of the day:

My wife just called to remind me that I have a few hundred € at home that I hadn't got around to changing from our last holiday. Nice exchange rate at the moment

I've got a pot full as well, gonna pay off my mortgage

 

[Craig_J]

But you can't help yourself linking them to racists

So you're telling me there is no link?

Again the vast, vast majority of people who voted brexit will not be racists but why else do you think 20 bald guys in the north east are congregated together cheering on a brexit result? Do you believe that they are part of the Hare Kirshna movement? I admit I am no expert on the Hare Krishna movement but I do not think that they would vote Brexit.

I again say that I do not think this is the rise of the fourth reich. But @Gaelforce is spot on to say we do need to at the very least exercise.

As Pink Floyd would tell you, it all begins with 'Would you like to see Britannia rule again?'

 

[Grays_1890]

Stay in the UK and fight for a better EU because together we are stronger they said

Unless that is together as Great Britain, then its not worth the fight and everyone who voted out is a macaron?

 

[scaramanga]

So you're telling me there is no link?

Again the vast, vast majority of people who voted brexit will not be racists but why else do you think 20 bald guys in the north east are congregated together cheering on a brexit result? Do you believe that they are part of the Hare Kirshna movement? I admit I am no expert on the Hare Krishna movement but I do not think that they would vote Brexit.

I again say that I do not think this is the rise of the fourth reich. But @Gaelforce is spot on to say we do need to at the very least exercise.

As Pink Floyd would tell you, it all begins with 'Would you like to see Britannia rule again?'

So you're claiming guilt by association?

By that measure anyone who votes Labour is anti-semitic.

I know a person called Derek who voted Lib Dem at the last election. Is everyone who voted for them now called Derek? I really hope not, that would be incredibly confusing.

 

[AuroRaman]

I know a person called Derek who voted Lib Dem at the last election. Is everyone who voted for them now called Derek? I really hope not, that would be incredibly confusing.

No, the other voter was called Rupert.

 

[Craig_J]

So you're claiming guilt by association?

By that measure anyone who votes Labour is anti-semitic.

Again no I am not.I think people just need to look back at some of the things that have happened and realise that you need to tread carefully. If I'm not mistaken there was once a politcan who said he was fed up with austerity, he was fed up with Europe telling his country what to do and that he was fed up with foreigners beginning to take over the country. He wanted rule returned to the people and cried that they were all capable of standing on their own two feet.

We have a bloody long way to go before we reach that sort of level. But what happens to all the people who are in the UK who have arrived via the EU and live here now? Do you think they now sit back and say it's fine you were here to begin with? Or do you think people will move on to ask why they are still here?

Questions will be asked as to why a group who the nation voted against continue to remain. It doesn't all end here.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I don't know, people vote for all different reason. I might vote the same way as a serial killer or a charity worker doesn't mean I am the same as them.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not at all. The external border of the EU was one of the worst barriers to trade in existence.

We are now able to trade freely with the world as we see fit, not just in a manner that benefits the least efficient parts of the EU.

If it was "the worst barrier to trade in existence" why did the UK prosper within it? Our wealth and security increased massively since joining yet its the worst barrier to trade? It just does not stack up.

Re. spare Euros lying around. Great now, but holidays abroad will be more costly, and quite possibly imports from the EU likewise. The country won't crumble overnight, but longer term, the UK is on the periphery. The US special relationship has just become less special, and the UKs influence in the world has just shrunk. And our access to preferential trade agreements likewise - we no longer have a block of 500m consumers to get better terms or a seat at the table. These are logical facts that can be reasoned. Sadly much of the leave argument is emotional and contradictory - like voting to remain while campaigning to go. You get the impression much of Conservative Leave is the same, and have no of intention delivering complete exit from the EU. For example one Boris Johnson, on record in Jan as saying Brexit was a waste of government time. Has he said anything yet?

The whole thing is perfection imo, and a waste of government money and energy that could have been spent on righting some of the wrongs that are occurring. Instead we'll face months or years of re-writing laws (that in most instances don't need changing), political upheaval (which is needed, but probably won't result in what people want just the same old with a different veneer) and quite possibly economic contraction across the UK - less money in peoples pockets. We have had some of the lowest unemployment rates in recent years, will this continue post Brexit?

There are up sides. Depending on how the post Cameron government play it, we might be able to trade with Russia, North Africa etc. where the EU has in place embargoes and tariffs. Maybe we will get trade agreements in place quickly with the US and China (despite what they said to us recently about going to the back of the queue), who knows?

Btw @scaramanga you stated previously that the UK is represented at the WTO. Not really true. It's represented via the EU. We don't have a seat at the WTO. There is SO much for the new government to do, things like sorting waiting lists, the NHS etc. will have to wait while they sort out how to leave the EU. We will need to increase the size of government, not reduce it, to deal effectively with this new reality.

Re. "sad that people are talking down the economy" is this simply the beginning of people trying to blame economic unrest not on Brexit but on something else?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

This is such a modern day problem. People are never prepared to suffer some pain/sh*t even if down the line it is for the greater good.

I wanted to leave but my main concern, The following thru with it. We need a strong, imposing leader, with a public that collectively believes and sees this as an oppurtunity to (use the old cliche) make Britain Great again.

But i don't see that, i see self-interested, self-serving, self absorbed, selfie-taking people in abundance. Collectiveness....no.

Well we're going to find out now.

Continuing on from my post above:

it is a brave vote, no doubt. People natrually are fearful of change and the risk of the unknown. To continue on as we were was the safe option, keep the status quo.....but the country wanted out.

But there is a problem.......in reality only a smidge over half the UK voted out. And the OUT route is filled with unknowns, so much that any wobble, downturn, recession is going to have plenty of remainers lining up to say i told you so. Even to the point of smugness.

Economically IMO things are not in a good place in or out, and sadly this really does give an excuse and someone to blame if things go to sh*t. People do love someone to blame.

In reality we need to be accepting and pull together (slim chance...seee above) and this should have been easier with say a 70%/30% split.

 

[Craig_J]

Continuing on from my post above:

it is a brave vote, no doubt. People natrually are fearful of change and the risk of the unknown. To continue on as we were was the safe option, keep the status quo.....but the country wanted out.

But there is a problem.......in reality only a smidge over half the UK voted out. And the OUT route is filled with unknowns, so much that any wobble, downturn, recession is going to have plenty of remainers lining up to say i told you so. Even to the point of smugness.

Economically IMO things are not in a good place in or out, and sadly this really does give an excuse and someone to blame if things go to sh*t. People do love someone to blame.

In reality we need to be accepting and pull together (slim chance...seee above) and this should have been easier with say a 70%/30% split.

+

Got that covered. It's Johnny Foreigner. He's overstayed his welcome and brought far to many of his friends. Now he can't bring any more guests to take up space in our dining room we can enjoy our banquet in peace.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Spurmeup you have not heard anyone from remain use the term little Englander really? fair enough but I heard it quite a lot.

If you listened to leave campaign to be fair most was on immigration which is not the biggest isssue for me, but the was plenty about how we should strengthen our ties with the commonwealth.

I am off to Richmond to visit my sister for lunch so am not ignoring anyone, I will be back this evening.

Slightly disappointed in the tone and language of people from the remain side. Is it any wonder that so many in the country voted against you if all you do id ridicule them. Perhaps really trying to learn the reasons why people voted the way they did rather than just airing your pre conceived perceptions would go along way towards a more harmonious society.

Never realised so many in this country were so defeatist in attitude.

No I've heard it from those who wanted to leave. Almost like they have it on their conscious. Where has it been written by those asking to remain? You don't think the Commonwealth is yesterdays news? What potential is there to build a trade alliance based on colonialism and lets be honest, previous exploitation?

Richamond for lunch sounds like one of the most sensible things in this thread Lovely day for it.

I don't think Remain people are defeatist, just feel that logic, rationale, clearly suggested that working and trading with countries around us makes sense. What is clear is that those in London think completely differently to those outside London. There is probably an age demographic too, with younger people seeing more opportunity in the EU and older people more inclined to retreat from it.

 

[scaramanga]

If it was "the worst barrier to trade in existence" why did the UK prosper within it? Our wealth and security increased massively since joining yet its the worst barrier to trade? It just does not stack up.

Why has China's? They're not in the EU.

Correlation ≠ causation. Just because we were in the EU and we prospered doesn't mean the EU made us prosper. Spain, Greece and Italy are all in the EU and they're fudged.

Re. spare Euros lying around. Great now, but holidays abroad will be more costly, and quite possibly imports from the EU likewise. The country won't crumble overnight, but longer term, the UK is on the periphery. The US special relationship has just become less special, and the UKs influence in the world has just shrunk. And our access to preferential trade agreements likewise. These are logical facts that can be reasoned. Sadly much of the leave argument is emotional and contradictory - like voting to remain while campaigning to go. You get the impression much of Conservative Leave is the same, and have no of intention delivering complete exit from the EU. For example Boris, has he said anything yet?

Holidays have been ridiculously cheap for a long time. A few % on the £ won't make them unaffordable.

We're still very influential. The UK has the 5th (or 4th if you don't count Germany twice) largest economy in the world, that's not inconsequential by anyone's standards - not China, not the US and certainly not Germany and its EU minions. Now we can also trade freely with countries further down the chain making our compound goods far more competitive than the EU can.

The whole thing is perfection imo, and a waste of time and government money and energy that could be spent on righting some of the wrongs that are occurring. Instead we'll face months or years of re-writing laws (that in most instances don't need changing), political upheaval (which is needed, but probably won't result in what people want just the same old with a different veneer) and quite possibly economic contraction across the UK - less money in peoples pockets. We have had some of the lowest unemployment rates, will this continue?

It's perfection that the majority voting wanted whether you like it or not. Those laws absolutely do need rewriting, I can tell you for a fact as I've had to scrutinise many of them over the last 10 years or so. I'm glad we're able to listen to our own businesses and manufacturers rather than vested interests from other countries when rewriting them.

As for unemployment, I don't know if you've noticed but the bottom end of the wage market is in desperate need of downward pressure. I think a small increase in unemployment will go towards repairing the damage Comrade Osborne has done recently.

There are up sides. Depending on how the post Cameron government play it, we might be able to trade with Russia, North Africa etc. where the EU has in place embargoes and tariffs. Maybe we will get trade agreements in place quickly with the US and China (despite what they said to us), who knows?

All of those things will happen - it would make no sense for any of those other countries not to. The US might feel a little protectionist but the others certainly won't.

Btw @scaramanga you stated previously that the UK is represented at the WTO. Not really true. We don't have a seat at the WTO, and are not actively represented. There is SO much for the new government to do, things like sorting waiting lists, the NHS etc. will have to wait while they sort out how to leave the EU. We will need to increase the size of government, not reduce it, to deal effectively with this new reality.

We don't need a seat there we just need to be a member - which we are twice. Once individually and once as a member of the EU - when our EU membership drops we will still be a member. I see no need to take part in WTO discussions, their aims (low barriers to open markets) are the same as ours.

I would expect the EU deals to take first precedent seeing as it directly affects the economy and that's what voters have repeatedly stated is the most important factor in voting.

Re. "sad that people are talking down the economy" is this simply the beginning of people trying to blame economic unrest not on Brexit but on something else?

They're talking down the post-Brexit economy - basically a big "I told you so". Meanwhile Mark Carney and Comrade Osborne are busy repairing the damage they've done over the past few weeks with their dramatic predictions.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

No I've heard it from those who wanted to leave. Almost like they have it on their conscious. Where has it been written by those asking to remain? You don't think the Commonwealth is yesterdays news? What potential is there to build a trade alliance based on colonialism and lets be honest, previous exploitation?

Richamond for lunch sounds like one of the most sensible things in this thread Lovely day for it.

I don't think Remain people are defeatist, just feel that logic, rationale, clearly suggested that working and trading with countries around us makes sense. What is clear is that those in London think completely differently to those outside London. There is probably an age demographic too, with younger people seeing more opportunity in the EU and older people more inclined to retreat from it.

By definition a minority thought that. Remainers i feel may not be able to shake the feeling of defeat....akin to Ronaldo's thoughts on the Icelanders ie 'what are these no-bodies gonna do...' oh hold up, wtf (envisage the Ronaldo face of disgust)

I mean will you get over it @SpurMeUp, you appear quite aghast, are the leavers just a bunch of uneducated, village idiot bellends?

 

[Modric THFC]

UKIP got 3.8m a year ago.
17.4m voted out. According to social media they are all racist.

Today is going to be a very good day for British exports.

 

[SpurMeUp]

By definition a minority thought that. Remainers i feel may not be able to shake the feeling of defeat....akin to Ronaldo's thoughts on the Icelanders ie 'what are these no-bodies gonna do...' oh hold up, wtf (envisage the Ronaldo face of disgust)

I mean will you get over it @SpurMeUp, you appear quite aghast, are the leavers just a bunch of uneducated, village idiot bellends?

All your words certainly not mine!

I'm saying that Remain people are not defeatist, just feel that logic was not represented in the vote. How does that relate to the outcome of the vote? Two separate things. We don't know if Brexit is a big deal, how it will effect us all. We will find out.

Will I get over it? I am footloose and free. I am considering moving part of my business abroad, but have been for sometime. Brexit could help us as we need coders, computer programmers, which are extremely expensive in London. A decline in the Banks who take the best and pay the best for coders, could be welcome, and a chance to take in more non-EU coders could be advantageous for me personally.

As for uneducated village idiot bellends, I don't think that. Everyone has their own reality, their own beliefs etc. and I don't think modern politics represents anyone too well. Change is needed, personally I don't think becoming isolationist is the answer however. In other words its a lot easier to blame 'the other', the external EU for the things that need to change, than actually address the things that need to change here at home.