Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Finney Is Back]

Not just for kicks. I've seen someone get up and start swinging after 3 taser shots. The taser isn't sufficient to "incapacitate" in a lot of cases, it often only buys time and its main purpose is inducing a compliance in the target via pain. Once someone is still non complant after a taser shot you know you are dealing with an unusually dangerous person - they are armed with a knife the kicks are required as you need to stay on your feet to put yourself in a bent or low down vulnerable posture close in to an armed man refusing commands is dangerous to you and others. You need to induce the suspect to disarm themselves and comply

This is exactly right. When a person is tasered it is only a very temporary incapacitation (and in some cases no incapacitation at all).

In this instance the officers had to use appropriate force to attempt to get the suspect to release the weapon they had just been attempting to murder people with, I thought they were remarkably constrained. Once the suspect had relinquished the weapon, the kicks stopped immediately. I thought the two policemen did a brilliant job (for crap pay and, it seems, little in the way of recognition from some of the British public).

 

[LutonSpurs]

It find it strange that some on here view that arrest as the police beating someone up for the sake of it, I really do.

Literally nobody has that view on here. It is a scenario you've invented Finney.

 

[WillWeEverBeGoodAgain]

It find it strange that some on here view that arrest as the police beating someone up for the sake of it, I really do.

The same nutjob who had previous for trying to stab a police man and a dog once before

It's quite simple really, if you don't want to get kicked in the head don't try and stab people

 

[LutonSpurs]

The same nutjob who had previous for trying to stab a police man and a dog once before

It's quite simple really, if you don't want to get kicked in the head don't try and stab people

Who has said otherwise?

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

He said it is not the time for the convo now. Same as @ricky2tricky4city said earlier. Doesn't mean it's not a conversation. It is. People are allowed to question all aspects of public service. It's what we do in a free soicety.

Of course. What he should have done is privately contact the Met and say "is this in line with training seems a bit OTT to me". Gets the answer. If they say "yeah in line and this is why" matter ends. If they go "nah, out of control" then he can say i am going to make a public statement with the backing of the police after it has died down a bit

 

[Gutter Boy]

Imagine this nutjob if (when?) the Greens actually have some power?

Making rich people pay some tax? Focusing on society and community, rather than fluffing corporate oligarchs? The terror!

 

[Gutter Boy]

The same nutjob who had previous for trying to stab a police man and a dog once before

It's quite simple really, if you don't want to get kicked in the head don't try and stab people

A person who should have been in a psychiatric facility. If things like that hadn't been completely defunded over the past 15 years of course

 

[glasgowspur]

Different people have different reactions to being tasered. I have a pal who is in the police and have heard many stories from him over the years.

The effectiveness of the taser depends on many things, for instance if the subject is obese or if the spread between the probes is quite small then the taser can cause only localised pain as opposed to full temporary paralysis. Also if the probes do not properly penetrate the skin then the electrical circuit doesn't complete and there is little effect. Also when somebody has high adrenaline levels it can lessen the impact of the taser. Same goes for people who are severely intoxicated.

Something worth noting is that the initial incapacitation from being tasered only lasts around 5 seconds, that is why the police move in so quickly to cuff somebody after tasering them.

In this instance there was a scumbag who had just attempted to murder two innocent people in the street and then failed to heed the police warnings to stop, continuing to come at them. That scumbag then refused to drop the weapon they were holding several seconds after being tasered despite clearly being told to many times. The person was clearly resisting dropping the weapon that they had already used to attempt to murder two people. In my book the police were absolutely right to use whatever force necessary to get the suspect to drop the knife, especially as they had both discharged their tasers so were then far more vulnerable to the suspect as he recovered further from the initial tasering.

It maybe different with a taser, but when you are electrocuted your muscles contract and you can't let go.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Of course. What he should have done is privately contact the Met and say "is this in line with training seems a bit OTT to me". Gets the answer. If they say "yeah in line and this is why" matter ends. If they go "nah, out of control" then he can say i am going to make a public statement with the backing of the police after it has died down a bit

No he does not. That's just what you think is better. He is allowed to hold pulbic servants to account. So is anyone. You can't micro manage that in a democracy.

 

[LutonSpurs]

It maybe different with a taser, but when you are electrocuted your muscles contract and you can't let go.

Finney and Silly are world experts on tasers bro. Don't question it ffs lol

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Different people have different reactions to being tasered. I have a pal who is in the police and have heard many stories from him over the years.

The effectiveness of the taser depends on many things, for instance if the subject is obese or if the spread between the probes is quite small then the taser can cause only localised pain as opposed to full temporary paralysis. Also if the probes do not properly penetrate the skin then the electrical circuit doesn't complete and there is little effect. Also when somebody has high adrenaline levels it can lessen the impact of the taser. Same goes for people who are severely intoxicated.

Something worth noting is that the initial incapacitation from being tasered only lasts around 5 seconds, that is why the police move in so quickly to cuff somebody after tasering them.

In this instance there was a scumbag who had just attempted to murder two innocent people in the street and then failed to heed the police warnings to stop, continuing to come at them. That scumbag then refused to drop the weapon they were holding several seconds after being tasered despite clearly being told to many times. The person was clearly resisting dropping the weapon that they had already used to attempt to murder two people. In my book the police were absolutely right to use whatever force necessary to get the suspect to drop the knife, especially as they had both discharged their tasers so were then far more vulnerable to the suspect as he recovered further from the initial tasering.

SillyGPT has already clarified most of this

 

[Rafa87]

Finney and Silly are world experts on tasers bro. Don't question it ffs lol

Im deliberately staying out of the rest of this debate, but in the case of Finneys post, it’s actually a very accurate description of taser. You know why I know, and you know where I usually lay on stuff - therefore why I’m staying away from this one, but Finneys post on this one and the effectiveness is pretty spot on tbh mate. Not to say all other opinions or views on this are as straightforward on either side.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It find it strange that some on here view that arrest as the police beating someone up for the sake of it, I really do.

This is exactly right. When a person is tasered it is only a very temporary incapacitation (and in some cases no incapacitation at all).

In this instance the officers had to use appropriate force to attempt to get the suspect to release the weapon they had just been attempting to murder people with, I thought they were remarkably constrained. Once the suspect had relinquished the weapon, the kicks stopped immediately. I thought the two policemen did a brilliant job (for crap pay and, it seems, little in the way of recognition from some of the British public).

There are two only questions that needs answering here.
1. During your training as a police officer are there limits on the force that is allowed to be used during an arrest/incident. Yes/no
2. Is there a list of specific allowable actions that are deemed acceptable during an arrest/incident. Yes/no.

Now I'm quite alright if the training is, that these are the rules but you can, if the situation deserves/requires, do whatever
is required and we'll sort out the legals afterwards. And I understand an officer may cross a line in any crazy/hectic moment.

But the two questions are the only two that need answering, the rest is just emotional posting, and that includes you.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Im deliberately staying out of the rest of this debate, but in the case of Finneys post, it’s actually a very accurate description of taser. You know why I know, and you know where I usually lay on stuff - therefore why I’m staying away from this one, but Finneys post on this one and the effectiveness is pretty spot on tbh mate. Not to say all other opinions or views on this are as straightforward on either side.

It's not better than Sillys.... surely!

 

[LutonSpurs]

Im deliberately staying out of the rest of this debate, but in the case of Finneys post, it’s actually a very accurate description of taser. You know why I know, and you know where I usually lay on stuff - therefore why I’m staying away from this one, but Finneys post on this one and the effectiveness is pretty spot on tbh mate. Not to say all other opinions or views on this are as straightforward on either side.

Sorry my bad @Finney Is Back. Should have said Silly only.

 

[Mikey10]

Zack Polanski’s criticism of Golders Green attack arrest will have ‘chilling effect’, says Met chief | UK news | The Guardian https://share.google/yzNiG3AiCs1qkotEu

This is the thing about people like him and Corbyn. More focused on the rights and safety of terrorists and other dangerous nutjobs than on the people they are tryimg to hurt.

Polanski is completely out of his depth leading a political party. Listen to his interview on The Rest is Politics Leading to hear that he doesn’t understand the basics of the economy or government.

It's being said they thought he might have been wearing an explosive vest. In which case violently kicking someone not just in the head but to the body as well seems to my untrained eye just a tad dangerous if he were indeed wearing such a vest.
I totally appreciate the high pressure situation they were in and the need to prevent any further harm to life, and by all accounts they were acting in accordance with their training, but to my (again, untrained) eye, the policeman doing most of the kicking looked totally out of control.

Again the footage is clear, he is face down with a taser chucking brick into his body, once the first copper is on his back its game over, deciding to stand up and kick him in the head with the other copper who arrives on the scene just looks like serving up their own kind of justice, which is not their job.

I get why SillyGBT and others might be salivating at video of his head being kicked in, given their stance on here over the years, it doesn't shock me

There was an interview on Sky News last night with a policeman stabbed in the back of the head a few years ago by the same person being held for the Golders Green stabbings.

He described how on that occasion the man was still attacking when he had a police dog and three men attempting to hold him down (an attack for which he served half of a nine year sentence). The policeman had to be medically retired after the incident and was shaking as he recounted the events to the journalist yesterday.

Easy to say the police overreacted when sitting at home, well away from the unfolding aftermath of two stabbings on the streets of London, and also safe in the knowledge that he wasn’t wearing some sort of explosive device.

 

[Rafa87]

There are two only questions that needs answering here.
1. During your training as a police officer are there limits on the force that is allowed to be used during an arrest/incident. Yes/no
2. Is there a list of specific allowable actions that are deemed acceptable during an arrest/incident. Yes/no.

Now I'm quite alright if the training is, that these are the rules but you can, if the situation deserves/requires, do whatever
is required and we'll sort out the legals afterwards. And I understand an officer may cross a line in any crazy/hectic moment.

But the two questions are the only two that need answering, the rest is just emotional posting, and that includes you.

1.) Yes, but with a truly massive subjective grey area.
2.) No, which leads to the aforementioned grey area.

Your middle paragraph is essentially where things lay. However, I’m sure you can see why it gets complicated when co paring heat of the moment with the legal process taking place in hindsight, especially when it’s often carried out by people who have never been in a situation like that themselves.