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OMT *** Tottenham Hotspur vs AFC Richmond/Crystal Palace - Sunday 27th October 14:00 ***
- Thread starter Jurgen the German
- Start date
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Que? Moving goal posts onto a different point?
Some players were rotated, but not all. Maddison, Solanke, Moore etc
Personally I don’t see a huge difference to last season. If anything I would say we have improved. In fact I am certain we have. What is different?
We didn’t get the run of the green early on. Might have picked up a few more points with a bit more luck or fluidity up front. And playing in Europe. Brighton and Palace results both following Thursday night games. That is t anything new. We’ve been here before with different managers and systems.
We are still developing. For me the greatest issue is our shyness up front.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
Three players started this game that started mid week
3
We were fresh
We didn’t work hard enough in the right way
There is no player that leads thsi team
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Yes I get your position. I’m simply asking what you’d do differently. Easy to criticise after a lost game. Who wouldn’t re-run the game again and tweak things!
One of the core abilities of mangers must be anticipating outcomes. After the first 5 mins today you could sense this outcome. But there is method in creating a stable way of playing. You don’t have to tinker as much and the team should develop more.
Today was disappointing but I’m not giving up on Ange so readily. It is work in progress.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
It wasnt work. It was fight. To stand up to the fouls, barrage of physicality. To the ref and the crowd. To not be dismayed and be extra driven to play around them and show them up. All credit to palace they were right in our faces and worked extremely hard. Maddison wasn’t fresh. Not was Solanke. And Moore after his first big adrenaline filled half on Thursday can’t have been fresh either.
In hindsight swapping out Maddison for Bentancur and having a more combative midfield, with Maddison coming on fresh might have been better. Or playing Maddison on the left instead of Moore. With Moore coming on fresh to run at them as they tired.
All that said, I thought we should have got at least a goal from our play. We had opportunities. And most concerning thing for me is the lack of determination and balls in our attack. We have forwards who seem scared.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
Why those options?
Why not start with the team that did the job last week vs West Ham?
Seemed an obvious call to me before the game
The forwards got no balls because we lost the midfield
We lost the midfield because they over that area moving in a CB and allow the others to press us. It was great tactically by palace and weak from us
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Ange did start the same side as against wham (bar Son), that was my point: most would have stuck with that side.
In hindsight we would all tweak it to add more steel in the middle.
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
Exactly. We don’t have the personnel to play our way regardless of the oppo. But it seems like Ange will not change, not even for ten minutes to make the opponent guess what we might do. So if there is an aggressive high press, we keep trying to tippy tap it out, inevitably make a mistake and get punished. And then they sit back and we can’t make anything happen.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
SteveAWOL
Barry Daines
See that since the Chavski loss last 37 games ago
Won:16 Drawn:5 Lost:16
Hopefully the gaffer can get things back on track soon or we’ve got a couple of January signings lined up who’ll hit the ground running (like Kulusevski and Bentancur did) so that he doesn’t have to compromise on his ideology.
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
Yes
And it dint work did t work first half
The damage was done when we had an extra deeper midfield passing quicker and more room in attack to attack
SteveAWOL
Barry Daines
SpurMeUp
Gary Stevens
Okay I get you. And the same played out today. Tbf to Maddison he’s played 3 games in a week and being taken off at HT is not going to save you a great deal. My point is: it is hard to isolate the key variables. We always look for one thing to explain a loss. But the truth is always there are a number of details. However, I agree, we lacked some grunt in the base of midfield. Not just to stand up to palace but to pass around them. In theory the more technical Maddison and Kulu should be able pass through a press better than most. But our lack of physicality (in midfield) today was stark. We needed more power and strength in the middle. Sarr seems next in line. But I’d have opted for Bentancur for his composure on the ball and to help us pass out - in hindsight.
Mulletperm
Mauricio Taricco
I thought we looked incredibly unbalanced from the off. With Moore, Maddison, Udogie and Johnson, Kulusevski, Porro all too close to each other leaving us very weak defensively in midfield. Something like this.
I thought after our second-half display against West Ham, something like the below would have been better (particularly away) with Sarr/Bissouma breaking play up and playing forward quickly. The fact Ange didn't change to that, after doing it at West Ham is odd.
I thought after our second-half display against West Ham, something like the below would have been better (particularly away) with Sarr/Bissouma breaking play up and playing forward quickly. The fact Ange didn't change to that, after doing it at West Ham is odd.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
We were out fought. Not necessarily that we didn't fight, but we were fought out of our quality. Palace pressed really well and subsequently dropped deep very well when we were able to progress. But the amount of times we lost the ball, the amount of times we were unable to properly play through the press. We lost our quality in the fight.
Particularly the midfield struggled a lot. I don't think Sarr would have been the answer.
Players need to find that quality and composure within themselves even when things are difficult, when we're not finding flow as such.
Particularly the midfield struggled a lot. I don't think Sarr would have been the answer.
Players need to find that quality and composure within themselves even when things are difficult, when we're not finding flow as such.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I agree that we seemed to be trying. We really struggled with their high press. Lost the ball a massive amount.
Having our best ball playing midfielders on the pitch along with our best ball playing defenders on the pitch seems like the way to deal with said high press. It's what we've been successful with in the past.
We were sloppy though. A lot of inaccurate passes, miscontrols. We looked flustered, rushed. And, like before, unable to shake out of that. We know these players are capable on their day of playing way better against a high pressing team. I don't think it's wrong for Ange to assume that they can or set them up like that.
This is part of what the players have to learn to deal with.
Mikey10
Pedro Mendes
I think Ange’s overall is actually around 62%, but that’s skewed somewhat by our first 10 results under him. A rate of 50% is historically towards the low side for us. We don’t tend to draw many under him either, which obviously has an impact too.
Anyway, hopefully we’ll beat Villa and 50% won’t come to pass.
Bishop
Nick Barmby
I think part of the issue is whilst the base technical level of our players is at a historically good standard, it's not actually high enough for what Ange demands. The quality of the first touch and the press resistance isn't where it needs to be, nor the range and quality of the pass into players under pressure.
If Ange is unwilling to adapt he's going to need the backing of the board to purchase him ever more suitable players or he's going to keeping coming unstuck, because what's he's trying to do here isn't anything new or even innovative. I've watched many teams over the years and across leagues attempt to play this way and at its core it requires a level of technical ability and tactical versatility that I just don't see enough of across the range of players in our squad.
So we are going to have to wait and hope that Ange is the right man to invest in. I generally like his plan and I appreciate the style he has implemented but I'm not so strong on his lack of adaptability. I'm not calling for wholesale changes but I think he could be a little more flexible or at least as you've mentioned have a little more direct game planning versus the opposition. We simply aren't that good that we can ignore what they bring to the table and just "play our way".