OMT *** Tottenham Hotspur vs AFC Richmond/Crystal Palace - Sunday 27th October 14:00 ***

[spurspinter1]

I think Postecoglou's style of play lends itself well to these over-reactions. When we win, we often look impressive and everyone suddenly can't help but hope that we have turned a corner or that he's found the winning formula, depending on how their opinion on the manager. When we lose - even more so this season - we look quite miserable and it seems we're doomed to mid-table obscurity.

My guess is that, at some point, we will either fall apart completely or we will grow more consistant. Or maybe this will carry on like this for quite some time. Either way, it will be interesting to watch.

A shorter but just as efficient summary of the past two league games could be: West Ham - they sucked; Palace - we sucked.

I don't think it counts as a guess if you label all possible outcomes of a situation! It's a bit ITK-esque I daresay....

Fair points aside from that though. For me it's all well and good saying how well we're recruiting with the club moving in the right direction with young players but unless it eventually translates into higher league finishes and winning trophies then it hasn't worked out. Everyone hopes we'll put a run together and it'll click but it seems like one step forward and two going back the other way.

I wouldn't say we should be thinking about losing Ange any time soon but come the end of the season it's another disappointing league finish and meek exits from the cup it'll be a different story for me I think. This idea of buying a load of young players and then shrugging when it doesn't work out saying "what could you expect from young players" only goes so far. There's a fair bit of money tied up in Veliz and the Korean lad, plus the Croatian CB, are we expecting them to make a difference in the next couple of years? I'm not writing them off and am obviously hopeful for all of our younger players but I don't think they're going to rock up and suddenly make us into a force to be reckoned with. Same with Odobert who was an even heftier fee. They should be coming in alongside quality experienced players who can guide them through games and I don't see that in our team at all...

I forgot to even mention Gray, what club makes 40m signings that sit it out on the bench, not many people are calling out for him to come into the team and sort it out, it'd be silly to expect him to do so, same for Bergvall. I wonder if this sounds like flapping, I'm not anti signing young players but we've invested a lot for the team to not seem any stronger than last season (Solanke aside).

 

[SteveAWOL]

A tale of 2 Right Backs…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850873260524609798

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850888836315832566

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I don't think it counts as a guess if you label all possible outcomes of a situation! It's a bit ITK-esque I daresay....

Fair points aside from that though. For me it's all well and good saying how well we're recruiting with the club moving in the right direction with young players but unless it eventually translates into higher league finishes and winning trophies then it hasn't worked out. Everyone hopes we'll put a run together and it'll click but it seems like one step forward and two going back the other way.

I wouldn't say we should be thinking about losing Ange any time soon but come the end of the season it's another disappointing league finish and meek exits from the cup it'll be a different story for me I think. This idea of buying a load of young players and then shrugging when it doesn't work out saying "what could you expect from young players" only goes so far. There's a fair bit of money tied up in Veliz and the Korean lad, plus the Croatian CB, are we expecting them to make a difference in the next couple of years? I'm not writing them off and am obviously hopeful for all of our younger players but I don't think they're going to rock up and suddenly make us into a force to be reckoned with. Same with Odobert who was an even heftier fee. They should be coming in alongside quality experienced players who can guide them through games and I don't see that in our team at all...

I forgot to even mention Gray, what club makes 40m signings that sit it out on the bench, not many people are calling out for him to come into the team and sort it out, it'd be silly to expect him to do so, same for Bergvall. I wonder if this sounds like flapping, I'm not anti signing young players but we've invested a lot for the team to not seem any stronger than last season (Solanke aside).

To be honest, that was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment. I'm a bit tired of adding 'what do I know' at the end of every post so I thought this would make for a nice change!

I think one thing Postecoglou has been doing right so far is managing the game time of these younger players. I think he's been using them all fairly well and he's managed to strike a good balance between remaining competitive and giving everyone a chance. Sure, it's not Sir Alex level but it's a different league now and I think he deserves some credit because it does take some gut to play a inexperienced player when your job is on the line, at least in my opinion.

Postecoglou being a 'system' manager, I believe working with youngsters is an efficient way to get the players he needs for the roles in his team. It's easier to teach new tricks to a teenager, after all. The question is, how long is everyone (the fans but, more importantly, Levy) willing to give him? Until the end of the season? Certainly. The season after that? Maybe... There aren't that many people in world football who can afford to think any further than that.

To get back to my initial comment, I thought the writing was on the wall after the Arsenal game and Postecoglou did make a few tweaks and we went on a short run of good results. When I thought he got the winning formula, particularly after the West Ham game, he fudged it up again. He's similar to Conte - strange as it may seem - in that neither is willing to deviate from their gameplan. 3-4-3 didn't work but Conte stuck with it until the end. Postecoglou does seem a little more flexible but is it going to be enough...? He faces an interesting equation: he has to convince the players that the system is good - so he can't make drastic changes - but the system isn't going to get him the finish we want.

Something's got to give, in my opinion, but you'd have to be a very clever man to guess what.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don't think it counts as a guess if you label all possible outcomes of a situation! It's a bit ITK-esque I daresay....

Fair points aside from that though. For me it's all well and good saying how well we're recruiting with the club moving in the right direction with young players but unless it eventually translates into higher league finishes and winning trophies then it hasn't worked out. Everyone hopes we'll put a run together and it'll click but it seems like one step forward and two going back the other way.

I wouldn't say we should be thinking about losing Ange any time soon but come the end of the season it's another disappointing league finish and meek exits from the cup it'll be a different story for me I think. This idea of buying a load of young players and then shrugging when it doesn't work out saying "what could you expect from young players" only goes so far. There's a fair bit of money tied up in Veliz and the Korean lad, plus the Croatian CB, are we expecting them to make a difference in the next couple of years? I'm not writing them off and am obviously hopeful for all of our younger players but I don't think they're going to rock up and suddenly make us into a force to be reckoned with. Same with Odobert who was an even heftier fee. They should be coming in alongside quality experienced players who can guide them through games and I don't see that in our team at all...

I forgot to even mention Gray, what club makes 40m signings that sit it out on the bench, not many people are calling out for him to come into the team and sort it out, it'd be silly to expect him to do so, same for Bergvall. I wonder if this sounds like flapping, I'm not anti signing young players but we've invested a lot for the team to not seem any stronger than last season (Solanke aside).

Buying in older pros now for the up and coming generations is imo too early. Gray, Moore, Bergvall, and the three on loan are not quite ready yet.
By the time the younsters are ready integrate the older ones will be past it.
The summer window of 2026 could be the optimal timing.

 

[Mikey10]

Buying in older pros now for the up and coming generations is imo too early. Gray, Moore, Bergvall, and the three on loan are not quite ready yet.
By the time the younsters are ready integrate the older ones will be past it.
The summer window of 2026 could be the optimal timing.

At this rate I’m going to be dead by the time we reach another quarter final.

 

[Muttley]

He's similar to Conte - strange as it may seem - in that neither is willing to deviate from their gameplan. 3-4-3 didn't work but Conte stuck with it until the end. Postecoglou does seem a little more flexible but is it going to be enough...? He faces an interesting equation: he has to convince the players that the system is good - so he can't make drastic changes - but the system isn't going to get him the finish we want.

Something's got to give, in my opinion, but you'd have to be a very clever man to guess what.

The irony of course is that Conte won Serie A with a 3-5-2. He then walked into a club with a wanting squad, in a much tougher league and thought that 3-4-3 would work. He even though Perisic could play wing-back in the PL and had to learn the hard way. Saying that, he'd love either of his 2 systems with this evolved squad.

Do you think Ange has to convince the players? I've pondered this a lot and I don't think they need convincing whereas previous squads were never congruent with their managers plan since about 2017 when Poch had his high press 4-2-3-1. I genuinely don't think we've seen a united squad and manager since that season even though we got to a CL final. Even that season, the weekends were rough whereas the midweek CL games saw buy-in from the players. With the bonuses achieved, I can see why.

What we might be seeing with the current players is confusion as to the how they execute their manager's plan though. That is subtly different. You might also be right that Ange's system won't get us the finish we want. Wherever we put that against our 66 point PL tally last season. I guess we find out.

 

[Muttley]

At this rate I’m going to be dead by the time we reach another quarter final.

If it was "by the time we win a cup", I might ask you to do the right thing and take one for the team. You seem too nice to do the deed just for a quarter final.

lol - not worth it !!!

 

[Mr Gogolak]

The irony of course is that Conte won Serie A with a 3-5-2. He then walked into a club with a wanting squad, in a much tougher league and thought that 3-4-3 would work. He even though Perisic could play wing-back in the PL and had to learn the hard way. Saying that, he'd love either of his 2 systems with this evolved squad.

Do you think Ange has to convince the players? I've pondered this a lot and I don't think they need convincing whereas previous squads were never congruent with their managers plan since about 2017 when Poch had his high press 4-2-3-1. I genuinely don't think we've seen a united squad and manager since that season even though we got to a CL final. Even that season, the weekends were rough whereas the midweek CL games saw buy-in from the players. With the bonuses achieved, I can see why.

What we might be seeing with the current players is confusion as to the how they execute their manager's plan though. That is subtly different. You might also be right that Ange's system won't get us the finish we want. Wherever we put that against our 66 point PL tally last season. I guess we find out.

It's impossible to know whether they need convincing or not (at least for me) but I know managers who put a lot of stock on a system see any compromise as a weakness. Maybe they have to believe beyond all reason themselves for it to work - I don't know.

Never understood why Conte went 3-4-3 in the first place. Maybe he felt we didn't have the depth he wanted hin central midfield but that was even worse as far as forwards were concerned. Strange decision but maybe if we had thousands of people going through each and every of our own day-to-day choices, some of these would be seen as baffling as well.

 

[Kompakted]

Having watched this season unfold, I have come to the conclusion that we are a top DM away from being a good side. Honestly, if you literally just replaced Bissouma/Bentancur (no real slight on them - I'd describe them as "makeshift" in that position) with a Rice or Rodri we'd probably have around 7 to 9 more points and be right up there in the title mix. As it is we are on course for (and I've said this before on this forum) for probably our lowest points total and league position in about a quarter of a century.

It might sound crazy that there's such a disparity in my view, but Ange's system is so open that without that level of quality in that position anchoring it all together we are almost a toss-up for a defeat in every game.

 

[Raziel]

Having watched this season unfold, I have come to the conclusion that we are a top DM away from being a good side. Honestly, if you literally just replaced Bissouma/Bentancur (no real slight on them - I'd describe them as "makeshift" in that position) with a Rice or Rodri we'd probably have around 7 to 9 more points and be right up there in the title mix. As it is we are on course for (and I've said this before on this forum) for probably our lowest points total and league position in about a quarter of a century.

It might sound crazy that there's such a disparity in my view, but Ange's system is so open that without that level of quality in that position anchoring it all together we are almost a toss-up for a defeat in every game.

No disagreement re impact of that type of player (City's win/loss ration with/without Rodri is way wider that you would think)

Pre injury Bentancur (the guy that held Conte's outnumbered midfield together) was close to what is needed (not saying close to Rodri), but it's up for debate if he'll get back there. Biss is too inconsistent.

Said it somewhere else, the next 60M+ buy should be in midfield, hopefully that DM role

 

[seaside spur]

I don't think it counts as a guess if you label all possible outcomes of a situation! It's a bit ITK-esque I daresay....

Fair points aside from that though. For me it's all well and good saying how well we're recruiting with the club moving in the right direction with young players but unless it eventually translates into higher league finishes and winning trophies then it hasn't worked out. Everyone hopes we'll put a run together and it'll click but it seems like one step forward and two going back the other way.

I wouldn't say we should be thinking about losing Ange any time soon but come the end of the season it's another disappointing league finish and meek exits from the cup it'll be a different story for me I think. This idea of buying a load of young players and then shrugging when it doesn't work out saying "what could you expect from young players" only goes so far. There's a fair bit of money tied up in Veliz and the Korean lad, plus the Croatian CB, are we expecting them to make a difference in the next couple of years? I'm not writing them off and am obviously hopeful for all of our younger players but I don't think they're going to rock up and suddenly make us into a force to be reckoned with. Same with Odobert who was an even heftier fee. They should be coming in alongside quality experienced players who can guide them through games and I don't see that in our team at all...

I forgot to even mention Gray, what club makes 40m signings that sit it out on the bench, not many people are calling out for him to come into the team and sort it out, it'd be silly to expect him to do so, same for Bergvall. I wonder if this sounds like flapping, I'm not anti signing young players but we've invested a lot for the team to not seem any stronger than last season (Solanke aside).

Well Chelsea obviously and lots of them. That's why they don't have any real drop off and won't have all season as long as Palmer stays fit.

 

[thfcsteff]

He has been backed. But the way he's been backed, particularly this summer, has mostly been with younger players that will need time. For me only fair to give him and those players quite a bit of time, as long as there's some improvement over time (not game to game).

I'm quite pleased with his "lack of adaptability" (I see it as him adapting, but in a limited way within certain principles). I think that's the way to go.

We're capable of playing much better against a high press than we did against Palace. We've seen it. Repeatedly. Ange, the coaches and the players need to figure out why that didn't happen against Palace and go again imo. The players need to learn how to deal with those situations better.

I stand by my assertion that you can play the same principles but with different players. In this case, where Sarr helps is that he can win duals, challenges, interceptions and help progress robustly against pressing robust sides. I also think it was tough on Moore to start him in a game like this. Maddison actually worked really hard and tried repeatedly to help in the 'graft off-ball' areas probably more than I've seen this season, but for me we still needed a sturdier midfield with one creative and two 'solid'. Deki would currently get the nod.

 

[thfcsteff]

For most of the season we have played well (and all stats/data back that up), the exceptions
- Coventry cup game (we won), and we have looked a little off in some of the heavily rotated Europe games
- 2nd Half against Brighton
- Full game against Palace (we were poor)

Personally
- Palace had a plan (have to give credit), it was about making sure we had no rhythm, no flow, some of it was good from them (pressed/squeezed us) , some was not my idea of good but effective (lots of breaking up play, afters in tackles, lots of fouls, lots of them laying on the ground), whole game was a stop start mess (suited them not us)
- Not blaming the player, but was not the day for Moore, should help people understand how critical it is for both wingers to be working in this system, Werner has many issues but the system works with him
- Once again, in a battling game, Maddison +Deki doesn't work
- Bad day at office for a few players, Deki, Johnson, VDV, Udogie all looked out of it

What's on Ange?
- Selection, not right game for Moore, not right game for both Maddison & Deki, changes at HT would have been better

This is just another step in PL countering games, end of last season team countered us by going man to man and being a little more physical, this is elevation of the break up play, make sure we don't have possession, see if we want it physically.

Totally agree re: selection and said this on pod. What I didn't say on pod (should have) is that Ange's post-match comments suggest he knew exactly what was coming at Palace, in which case the starting 11 was a conscious choice despite evidence that they are not quite up to that physicality. Either he knew and wants them to learn or he made a decision based on factors we don't know...OR he simply got it wrong.

 

[spurspinter1]

To be honest, that was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment. I'm a bit tired of adding 'what do I know' at the end of every post so I thought this would make for a nice change!

I think one thing Postecoglou has been doing right so far is managing the game time of these younger players. I think he's been using them all fairly well and he's managed to strike a good balance between remaining competitive and giving everyone a chance. Sure, it's not Sir Alex level but it's a different league now and I think he deserves some credit because it does take some gut to play a inexperienced player when your job is on the line, at least in my opinion.

Postecoglou being a 'system' manager, I believe working with youngsters is an efficient way to get the players he needs for the roles in his team. It's easier to teach new tricks to a teenager, after all. The question is, how long is everyone (the fans but, more importantly, Levy) willing to give him? Until the end of the season? Certainly. The season after that? Maybe... There aren't that many people in world football who can afford to think any further than that.

To get back to my initial comment, I thought the writing was on the wall after the Arsenal game and Postecoglou did make a few tweaks and we went on a short run of good results. When I thought he got the winning formula, particularly after the West Ham game, he fudged it up again. He's similar to Conte - strange as it may seem - in that neither is willing to deviate from their gameplan. 3-4-3 didn't work but Conte stuck with it until the end. Postecoglou does seem a little more flexible but is it going to be enough...? He faces an interesting equation: he has to convince the players that the system is good - so he can't make drastic changes - but the system isn't going to get him the finish we want.

Something's got to give, in my opinion, but you'd have to be a very clever man to guess what.

Ha, that's my bad as the joke flew right over my head. Given what gets posted here without the slightest hint of irony it's hard to tell sometimes!

It is indeed bold to play younger players and arguably Ange is integrating them well, but it's a big ask to not be bothered about the here and now in terms of results / league standings (which you aren't directly saying to be clear, it's just attached to the fawning over how good it is to play young players). That said, I know it's possible to instead spend big money on experienced players and it still go tits up - Man Utd being absolute masters of this art immediately comes to mind.

Buying in older pros now for the up and coming generations is imo too early. Gray, Moore, Bergvall, and the three on loan are not quite ready yet.
By the time the younsters are ready integrate the older ones will be past it.
The summer window of 2026 could be the optimal timing.

That's an interesting one, it almost suggests that these players aren't here on Ange's behest and I guess that's often the case with younger players. It's one thing to have the usual "next year will be our year" trope rolled out but to extend it to "We'll hopefully be looking good in around two years time!". It just doesn't seem like the set up to have these young players flourish when we need players who can come in and raise the levels of those around them, which puts these younger players in a tough position for the meantime, it's not quite lambs to the slaughter but heading that way if we're looking at a 7th to 11th / 12th place league finish - Obviously it's still very early days but the longer our results are iffy, the bigger run of excellent results we'll need to get into a league position we'd have been happy with at the start of the season. It's all about expectations I guess, moving in the right direction would be a good thing of course.

Well Chelsea obviously and lots of them. That's why they don't have any real drop off and won't have all season as long as Palmer stays fit.

True, not really who I want us to be grouped in with, whilst they have spent much more, if they can keep it up and get a top four finish it'll take away from the "Well we played young players what can you expect" excuse that's pre loaded for us if it is a disappointing season.

 

[glasgowspur]

Ha, that's my bad as the joke flew right over my head. Given what gets posted here without the slightest hint of irony it's hard to tell sometimes!

It is indeed bold to play younger players and arguably Ange is integrating them well, but it's a big ask to not be bothered about the here and now in terms of results / league standings (which you aren't directly saying to be clear, it's just attached to the fawning over how good it is to play young players). That said, I know it's possible to instead spend big money on experienced players and it still go tits up - Man Utd being absolute masters of this art immediately comes to mind.



That's an interesting one, it almost suggests that these players aren't here on Ange's behest and I guess that's often the case with younger players. It's one thing to have the usual "next year will be our year" trope rolled out but to extend it to "We'll hopefully be looking good in around two years time!". It just doesn't seem like the set up to have these young players flourish when we need players who can come in and raise the levels of those around them, which puts these younger players in a tough position for the meantime, it's not quite lambs to the slaughter but heading that way if we're looking at a 7th to 11th / 12th place league finish - Obviously it's still very early days but the longer our results are iffy, the bigger run of excellent results we'll need to get into a league position we'd have been happy with at the start of the season. It's all about expectations I guess, moving in the right direction would be a good thing of course.



True, not really who I want us to be grouped in with, whilst they have spent much more, if they can keep it up and get a top four finish it'll take away from the "Well we played young players what can you expect" excuse that's pre loaded for us if it is a disappointing season.

Or we will have a peak vdv, Udogie, Sarr, Johnson and kulu, a couple seasoned pros who know how to win and sprinkling of stardust from our new generation.
Levy is a long game guy.
And yes it's the hope that kills, and I'm going for a long lingering death.........

 

[parklane1]

Having watched this season unfold, I have come to the conclusion that we are a top DM away from being a good side. Honestly, if you literally just replaced Bissouma/Bentancur (no real slight on them - I'd describe them as "makeshift" in that position) with a Rice or Rodri we'd probably have around 7 to 9 more points and be right up there in the title mix. As it is we are on course for (and I've said this before on this forum) for probably our lowest points total and league position in about a quarter of a century.

It might sound crazy that there's such a disparity in my view, but Ange's system is so open that without that level of quality in that position anchoring it all together we are almost a toss-up for a defeat in every game.

Could not agree more [been saying it since the end of last season] its the number one position that we are missing, we have no one who has that mentality that the top DMs have. Bents can do a decent job there but his real talent is elswhere[imo]. We can blame the likes of Romero, VDV being so open but until we bring one in we will always be open to attacks through the middle.

 

[Bishop]

Could not agree more [been saying it since the end of last season] its the number one position that we are missing, we have no one who has that mentality that the top DMs have. Bents can do a decent job there but his real talent is elswhere[imo]. We can blame the likes of Romero, VDV being so open but until we bring one in we will always be open to attacks through the middle.

The questions to ask could we not afford one, was there someone specific we couldn't bring in or did we think what we had was enough and we didn't need one?

 

[parklane1]

The questions to ask could we not afford one, was there someone specific we couldn't bring in or did we think what we had was enough and we didn't need one?

Who knows really, maybe Ange thought he could turn Bents, Biss, Sarr into that type of player, sadly they may all be good at some things but i do not see any of them with mentality of a DM. they may be talented in their own game but it takes a special thought process to be a proper DM, i used to be one and the reading of the game is a lot different then a attacking M/F player. imo

 

[Kandi1977]

Is a 50% win rate anything to write home about?

Genuine question.

Very few managers get much above 50% win rate without managing super clubs for long periods.

 

[braineclipse]

I stand by my assertion that you can play the same principles but with different players. In this case, where Sarr helps is that he can win duals, challenges, interceptions and help progress robustly against pressing robust sides. I also think it was tough on Moore to start him in a game like this. Maddison actually worked really hard and tried repeatedly to help in the 'graft off-ball' areas probably more than I've seen this season, but for me we still needed a sturdier midfield with one creative and two 'solid'. Deki would currently get the nod.

Fully agreed that you can play with the same principle with different players. That much seems obvious. We played with the same principles last season when Sarr started a lot.

For me our main problem against Palace was our inability to beat their press. We lost the ball a ton. We created very little in terms of successfully playing through their press and getting into good areas.

That is something Sarr doesn't excel at either. Why we failed at that is for me the biggest question. So many times it's been one of our biggest strengths and being good at that is vital for this system in games when opponents press high.