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OMT ***Tottenham Hotspur v Manchester United***

DubaiSpur said:
That's not the best way to judge chances. If you have twenty shots on target from outside the box but all of them were saved, versus an opponent who had four shots on target that all went in, from the center of the box, with no one around the strikers...who had the better chances?
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no, who took their chances better, not who had the better chances in that case
 
indospurs said:
we lost at manyoo last year, but did them in the reverse

last year liverpoo were our bugbear team, look at us now

noe chavski, mmmm

arseanal ?? hahaha, we got 'em !
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We beat Chelsea at home last year. We lost at home to them this year.

It isn't the best thing, comparing us at WHL to us at Wembley.
 
Good job we don't care about the Cups as we managed to follow the Cup exit with a win against a side who only managed to win two worthless cups themselves last season.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Their squad will not win the league. City's will. I take it you would have their squad over ours?

As for comparing chances, if Alli's is a glorious chance, then so are the four or so United created. If Alli's is a half chance, so are the United ones. The point is that they created four or five to our one.

The context of the game is what is being forgotten - we threw the Carabao Cup game so we could be prepared for this. And that was viewed as a great decision by many of our fans. Now, we have lost both games, which doesn't scream great decision-making.

And it wasn't balanced in both halves. We were better overall in the first half, they dominated in the second. But their dominance counted, while we huffed on air for ninety minutes just like we did last year at Old Trafford.
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Oh come on Dubai!

We threw the game against West Ham? That's just an absurd statement.

And, United are a very good team. A title challenger, level on points with us before the game. Mourinho at the helm and at home, it's always going to be a tough game. And we were without Kane. The only thing Pochettino can do is to try to increase our chances of a good result somewhat. The loss is always a possibility. Had Alli scored his chance and we'd won would Pochettino be proven right? You simply cannot judge the manager on such small margins. If you want to be fair and reasonable anyway.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Their squad will not win the league. City's will. I take it you would have their squad over ours?

As for comparing chances, if Alli's is a glorious chance, then so are the four or so United created. If Alli's is a half chance, so are the United ones. The point is that they created four or five to our one.

The context of the game is what is being forgotten - we threw the Carabao Cup game so we could be prepared for this. And that was viewed as a great decision by many of our fans. Now, we have lost both games, which doesn't scream great decision-making.

And it wasn't balanced in both halves. We were better overall in the first half, they dominated in the second. But their dominance counted, while we huffed on air for ninety minutes just like we did last year at Old Trafford.
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I’d probably take City’s, gun to my head. Totally irrelevant to the discussion though.

I just don’t see how you aren’t giving the credit to Alli’s chance. But your argument rests on us not creating anything, even though we created the chance of the game. It’s a massively easy chance, and if you asked Alli, he would say as much. It would have taken very little to beat DDG from there, and we score that we can then try and shut up shop, and probably claim at least a point. Alli scored the same chance at Saudi Sportswashing Machine and scored harder versions of it against Chelsea at home last year. It’s the chance of the game. Valencia’s effort from a corner clearance, Lukaku being forced way wide, and a ball being fizzed across the box which Lloris calmly claims...they are no where near as good chances. Lukaku made a good effort from peddling backwards for his header onto the post and their goal was us being poor...but I don’t really see your point. They were at home, are we supposed to concede no chances at all? Was it a failure of coaching? Do we ship out the entire defence? Just Dier? What are you trying to say?

We went to a Mourinho ground, competed well, without our best player, and we created a fantastic chance and most people would say a draw was fair. A lack of concentration gave it away.

But that doesn’t mean we have to draw sweeping conclusions about ‘where we are as a club’ 6 days after playing Liverpool off the park 4 days after getting a point in the Bernabau. As for West Ham, *we* didn’t throw the game. The coach played a strong team that had more than enough quality to win - and we went into a 2-0 lead. The players got complacent but it doesn’t mean that we were guaranteed to get a result today just because we conserved some mental energy either. It was always going to be a tough game. We were unlucky but the margins are so fine, Alli scores and Dier doesn’t do probably the worse thing he’s done in a Spurs shirt, and we take at least a deserved point. We’re third, we’re challenging for the title again, there is nothing to go crazy about.
 
These games for me is where the true financial disparities are at there most stark!

I have no complaints about our side today - that’s football folks.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
They have been up there ages time son recent seasons and didn’t stay there

Also the table compares them to other teams THIS season

As I say IMO they look no better than under Van Gaal or even better than last season
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Last season they failed to convert chances and drew too many games. This season they hammering the poor teams. That is an improvement. .......yes, so far.
 
United aren't a very good team but we were naieve, getting on the wrong end of challenges, and wasting a lot of energy losting possession when we did not need to.

perhaps the heavy rain had a lot to do with the results. I remember as a schoolboy, we always fancied our chances when it rained - and we weren't exactly a very good team.
 
braineclipse said:
Oh come on Dubai!

We threw the game against West Ham? That's just an absurd statement.

And, United are a very good team. A title challenger, level on points with us before the game. Mourinho at the helm and at home, it's always going to be a tough game. And we were without Kane. The only thing Pochettino can do is to try to increase our chances of a good result somewhat. The loss is always a possibility. Had Alli scored his chance and we'd won would Pochettino be proven right? You simply cannot judge the manager on such small margins. If you want to be fair and reasonable anyway.
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We threw the game against West Ham. We sent out a weakened side, Poch called the cup crap and said he didn't think winning it was important. Surprise, surprise, we switched off, gave up three goals and lost against a more committed side - Poch admitted as much post-game.

Threw the game, threw the cup because we're apparently far, far too good to bother with such things now. But not good enough to win against a title challenger without Kane, apparently.

As for that bit about margins and it being a tough game, them's the shakes when you make the decision to prioritize one game over another. You choose to save your energy for one game and another is lost as a result, then the judgement will fall on you regarding the outcome in the game you saved up for. And if you lose both, then you really don't have much of a defence to call on - you chose to maximise the chances of getting a result in one game over another, and failed to get a result in either. So, you get stick. And you deserve it.

As Poch would say, 'that is futbol'. If you want to make it about results, you get judged on results.
 
DubaiSpur said:
We threw the game against West Ham. We sent out a weakened side, Poch called the cup crap and said he didn't think winning it was important. Surprise, surprise, we switched off, gave up three goals and lost against a more committed side - Poch admitted as much post-game.

Threw the game, threw the cup because we're apparently far, far too good to bother with such things now. But not good enough to win against a title challenger without Kane, apparently.

As for that bit about margins and it being a tough game, them's the shakes when you make the decision to prioritize one game over another. You choose to save your energy for one game and another is lost as a result, then the judgement will fall on you regarding the outcome in the game you saved up for. And if you lose both, then you really don't have much of a defence to call on - you chose to maximise the chances of getting a result in one game over another, and failed to get a result in either. So, you get stick. And you deserve it.

As Poch would say, 'that is futbol'. If you want to make it about results, you get judged on results.
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Do you honestly believe Poch saying he wants to win the CL and PL actually affects the standards he would accept from the players in a League Cup match? The guy is crazy about standards. He records absolutely everything the players do, and if a player so much as looks at the ground as they are walking to the changing room, he will be on at them to ask why. Being realistic about priorities and where he wants to take this club is not the same as loweing standards.

And besides, were the players sooooooo Unmotivated by his comments before the game that they went into a 2-0 lead for a bit of a laugh? Or does he care about the cup so little that he bothers playing guys like Alli, Toby etc...he could very easily play kids like Wenger if he really didn’t care.

You are massively over-reacting.
 
DubaiSpur said:
We threw the game against West Ham. We sent out a weakened side, Poch called the cup crap and said he didn't think winning it was important. Surprise, surprise, we switched off, gave up three goals and lost against a more committed side - Poch admitted as much post-game.

Threw the game, threw the cup because we're apparently far, far too good to bother with such things now. But not good enough to win against a title challenger without Kane, apparently.

As for that bit about margins and it being a tough game, them's the shakes when you make the decision to prioritize one game over another. You choose to save your energy for one game and another is lost as a result, then the judgement will fall on you regarding the outcome in the game you saved up for. And if you lose both, then you really don't have much of a defence to call on - you chose to maximise the chances of getting a result in one game over another, and failed to get a result in either. So, you get stick. And you deserve it.

As Poch would say, 'that is futbol'. If you want to make it about results, you get judged on results.
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My bad. Thought there was room for nuance.
 
StephenH said:
Look at the quality and what’s more cost of the players United bought on, then the comparative costs of each squad!
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I really wouldn’t take many of theirs over ours. If they’d beaten us like we beat Liverpool, maybe I’d get that. But this was a game decided bu the finest of margins, I didn’t think the gap was that big whatsoever.
 
StephenH said:
Look at the quality and what’s more cost on the players United bought on, let alone squad prices!
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Just because they overpaid for many of their players doesn't mean they are any stronger overall.

Judge the squads player for player not on prices paid.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I’d probably take City’s, gun to my head. Totally irrelevant to the discussion though.
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Hardly. My point was that it takes that sort of side to win the league, unless you're a fairytale like Leicester - and we have *never* been lucky enough to be a fairytale, so we need to be as strong as City. But people discount the cups with mindless ease because they think that we can win the league playing like we did today - which isn't true, and will never be true until we have enough quality in the side to be able to cope with injuries and occasionally switching off.

BrainOfLevy said:
I just don’t see how you aren’t giving the credit to Alli’s chance. But your argument rests on us not creating anything, even though we created the chance of the game. It’s a massively easy chance, and if you asked Alli, he would say as much. It would have taken very little to beat DDG from there, and we score that we can then try and shut up shop, and probably claim at least a point. Alli scored the same chance at Saudi Sportswashing Machine and scored harder versions of it against Chelsea at home last year. It’s the chance of the game. Valencia’s effort from a corner clearance, Lukaku being forced way wide, and a ball being fizzed across the box which Lloris calmly claims...they are no where near as good chances. Lukaku made a good effort from peddling backwards for his header onto the post and their goal was us being poor...but I don’t really see your point. They were at home, are we supposed to concede no chances at all? Was it a failure of coaching? Do we ship out the entire defence? Just Dier? What are you trying to say?

We went to a Mourinho ground, competed well, without our best player, and we created a fantastic chance and most people would say a draw was fair. A lack of concentration gave it away.
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My point was that @billyiddo 's reading of the game was inaccurate - it wasn't even. We were worse than they were throughout the second half - second to everything. And we were punished for it. A draw would have been something we would have been relieved by - which hardly speaks of an even, level game.

BrainOfLevy said:
But that doesn’t mean we have to draw sweeping conclusions about ‘where we are as a club’ 6 days after playing Liverpool off the park 4 days after getting a point in the Bernabau. As for West Ham, *we* didn’t throw the game. The coach played a strong team that had more than enough quality to win - and we went into a 2-0 lead. The players got complacent but it doesn’t mean that we were guaranteed to get a result today just because we conserved some mental energy either. It was always going to be a tough game. We were unlucky but the margins are so fine, Alli scores and Dier doesn’t do probably the worse thing he’s done in a Spurs shirt, and we take at least a deserved point. We’re third, we’re challenging for the title again, there is nothing to go crazy about.
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The coach didn't send out his strongest side - he sent out a patched up side after disparaging the cups in general, and the competition in particular beforehand. He did nothing in the second half as we utterly switched off and went 3-2 down - and the conservation of mental energy ultimately didn't help today either. We were unlucky, fine margins, Alli scores and it's a different game - true, partly, but if my aunty had b*llocks...well, you know the rest. Point is, he made a choice, prioritising this game over the Carabao Cup game, and lost both - if you prioritize results in the league over results in the cups, get the damn result, which we didn't do today.

braineclipse said:
My bad. Thought there was room for nuance.
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There is precious little when it comes to the cups. They're dismissed and belittled with none of the nuance that you're demanding we afford to Poch for losing a game like this.
As I said, it's my big gripe with Poch, and it won't go away. A man who has won nothing whatsoever cannot be picky. A club which has won nearly nothing in a quarter of a century cannot afford to be picky. And if you choose to be picky despite that, accept the damn blame and move on.
 
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