***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Leeds United, Mon May 11th, 8pm, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium***

[DaveT316]

It was a clear penalty in my eyes. There was no evidence of the ball moving and even if there had been a touch it was negligible at best. The quote from Sky’s article by Howard Webb about a penalty awarded to Brighton against Arsenal last year pretty much sums up my thoughts on last night’s incident.

“Justifying the decision of a penalty, PGMO chief Howard Webb argued that getting a touch on the ball does not negate a penalty, especially when a follow through is concerned.
That touch on the ball doesn't negate the possible award of a penalty," said Webb about the Saliba incident.
We've seen other examples where the ball may touch a player but there's still heavy contact on the follow through and it's a penalty."

James Maddison penalty incident: Should Spurs have been given 103rd-minute penalty for challenge by Leeds striker Lukas Nmecha?

Tottenham were denied a late penalty by VAR in their 1-1 draw vs Leeds; James Maddison was felled by Lukas Nmecha but referee Jarred Gillett and VAR felt the Leeds striker got the ball; Roberto De Zerbi said the official wasnt calm as Spurs relegation fears carry on

www.skysports.com

Webb will find a way of justifying tonight if it's looked at on Mic'd Up. "There isn't heavy contact on the follow through and not enough to warrant overturning it" or some other nonsense justification.

However, I had a great view of it in real time and I wasn't totally convinced it was a penalty. I'm just absolutely sick of us not getting ANY kind of call in the margins. It's beyond ridiculous now, but now, the narrative is set, and we will get less than nothing before the season's end.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The VAR on-pitch review is a nonsense. Scrap it.

Either there's an obvious mistake or let the onfield decision stand.

In effect it becomes a way for more marginal decisions to be given by VAR because the refs just follow the VAR premise of questioning it.

Neither the Madison or Tel pens should have been given.

The biggest gonads and the thing they need be more relaxed about is the VAR discussion on a decision being just that...a discussion...with the onfield ref just as likely to say 'nah, thanks for the second looks but I'm sticking with my original decision '

 

[braineclipse]

Frustrating not to get the win, was a somewhat close game but think we were the better side. Crumbled a bit after the penalty, shows how limited our confidence still is and how much we miss some of our better players.

All in all though a decent performance. Shame about the penalty for Tel after a cracking goal. Really happy for Kinsky, what a bounce back after Madrid. Made some excellent saves and his distribution was really good, looks really composed and confident. Great boost to have Maddison back on the pitch too, wasn't able to win us the game, but looked good when he came on and certainly can be an asset in the remaining games as a sub playing like that.

Hopefully we're still above the dotted line come kick off against Chelsea. An opportunity to create some breathing room not taken, but still in our hands. Reasons to keep believing as well as hoping.

 

[Yiddo.1882]

Webb will find a way of justifying tonight if it's looked at on Mic'd Up. "There isn't heavy contact on the follow through and not enough to warrant overturning it" or some other nonsense justification.

However, I had a great view of it in real time and I wasn't totally convinced it was a penalty. I'm just absolutely sick of us not getting ANY kind of call in the margins. It's beyond ridiculous now, but now, the narrative is set, and we will get less than nothing before the season's end.

I have no doubt Webb and the PGMOL will find a way to justify the decision. The key for me personally is if Maddison hadn’t been taken down, touch fo the ball or not, he would likely still have had control of the ball and it never would have gone out of play.

 

[metalgear]

We played well as a team and kudos to dezerbi for the performance.

Yet, silly mistakes (tel, danzo previously) and low quality (muani and Richy ) are enough weak links to take down the entire team

It's out of dezerbis control at the moment with not much options.

Motm to kinski
Tel loses the ball too much and made a fool out of himself and the team
Porro was poor in attack even without defensive responsibilities.

Hoping west ham drop more points, but unlikely, they played very well against arsenal.
4 transfers in mid season transformed them

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Hoping west ham drop more points, but unlikely, they played very well against arsenal.
4 transfers in mid season transformed them

What?....from a bottom 3 team to a bottom 3 team .....transformational.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don't think re-defining what constitutes winning a tackle in the way described would change anything there - if the defender wins possession it doesn't matter either way

The proposal would leave a lot open to interpretation, introduce more subjectivity and that leads to inconsistency. And where you have inconsistency, you'll make the officials' lives harder IMO.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I have to say after some confidence building displays and the last two victories I was surprised how for periods last night we returned to type in as much as sinking into our shell and looking a bit clueless in how to deal with the situation.

Some of the fluidity I'd been witnessing had evaporated. No-one really knowing where each other was, or was going to be. Stopping and taking two/three different looks before having any idea where to play the ball next. Looking disjointed again. Bad choices/decision making.

I'm not sure if it's the weight of playing at home (and never winning) ?
I think I'd be quite happy if BOTH our final games were away tbh.

Wolves was a fairly stodgy performance to be fair aside from the opening 15 mins. Villa was more the outlier IMO.

We had an energy and a hunger against Villa that I've not seen from us in years. Probably not since Poch. Football can be strange like that sometimes - it's not a lack of will or effort. Sometimes the match circumstances are just right, you get a bit of momentum and off you go. If we can produce that against Chelsea and Everton, I think we'll be fine. If not, it's chew your fingernails time.

 

[metalgear]

What?....from a bottom 3 team to a bottom 3 team .....transformational.

i've watched them closely in the last 5 games before we entered the fray - they are getting better and better each game and i feel they are peaking at the right time
they also have better quality players across the front three - better striker than richy, better wingers than kolo and tel
arguably they have better chance creation through the middle than gallagher and benta could

 

[DaveT316]

I have no doubt Webb and the PGMOL will find a way to justify the decision. The key for me personally is if Maddison hadn’t been taken down, touch fo the ball or not, he would likely still have had control of the ball and it never would have gone out of play.

I’ve just tortured myself and watched it back, on my telly rather than phone - it’s a stonewall penalty. fudging hell. The defender barely gets anything on the ball, if anything.

 

[thfcsteff]

Ironically, they got all the calls right imo.

So performed under pressure.

As you know, I disagree re: Maddison.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’ve just tortured myself and watched it back, on my telly rather than phone - it’s a stonewall penalty. fudging hell. The defender barely gets anything on the ball, if anything.

Exactly.
There is nothing there.
I am convinces the reason Gilet didn't give it on field is because it was the final minute of the game and he thought he'd let VAR decide (which of course we know is a cop-out because VAR rarely overrules onfield call). In fact, I would love to see Gilet's ref cam. Given the furor at West Ham the previous day, well, y'know...

I am still not convinced on the Tel one. He is not looking at the player and when he checks his space there is no-one in it. I agree that an overhead clearance there is a poor decision. The one we got lucky with was that toenail offside IMO...

 

[DaveT316]

Exactly.
There is nothing there.
I am convinces the reason Gilet didn't give it on field is because it was the final minute of the game and he thought he'd let VAR decide (which of course we know is a cop-out because VAR rarely overrules onfield call). In fact, I would love to see Gilet's ref cam. Given the furor at West Ham the previous day, well, y'know...

I am still not convinced on the Tel one. He is not looking at the player and when he checks his space there is no-one in it. I agree that an overhead clearance there is a poor decision. The one we got lucky with was that toenail offside IMO...

I have to say Steff, last night has given me a bit of perspective on the ref's lot. I really didn't think there was much in Udogie's challenge on DCL - watching this back too, it was stonewall if onside - nor Maddison's in real time. Having said this, their position should be a lot better than mine given I was in the stands and they were a few yards away!

Tel's was a poor, poor decision on his part and you could see it coming a mile off. You have to hope he learns from it. I was saying to my mate at half time who hasn't watched us much this year he is 'raw, but will lots of potential' and boy did that second half prove it!

 

[harr1984]

This is a good point.
It was an easy action to observe (a high kick and two players on their own) and I'm guessing due to where it occurred on the pitch the ref and linesman would be looking in at it from different but favourable angles.

So this then leads to 'clear and obvious' and whether VAR needs to, or even is allowed to intervene? (ie the onfield refs have seen everything they need to)

This sort of thing supports what I've been saying for some time - that fans need to not get so hung up on the 'clear and obvious' thing whether that's still the official line or not. It seems obvious to me that most of the time refs will not make a big call and just wait for VAR to tell them that they need to look at it.

Basically, the ref not blowing up doesn't mean that he doesn't think it's a foul - just that he will wait for VAR to tell him it looks like a foul and should look at it. That's to me how it seems most of the time these days, the refs are playing it safe knowing that VAR will advise them if there was an infringement in the box or whatever....

 

[thfcsteff]

I have to say Steff, last night has given me a bit of perspective on the ref's lot. I really didn't think there was much in Udogie's challenge on DCL - watching this back too, it was stonewall if onside - nor Maddison's in real time. Having said this, their position should be a lot better than mine given I was in the stands and they were a few yards away!

Tel's was a poor, poor decision on his part and you could see it coming a mile off. You have to hope he learns from it. I was saying to my mate at half time who hasn't watched us much this year he is 'raw, but will lots of potential' and boy did that second half prove it!

I would 100% persevere with him and let him have the left. I think with confidence and a run he will be a fine player.
His defensive lapses are coachable; both last night happened in a similar area of the pitch left side heading toward corner) so there is something to be coached out there.

 

[thfcsteff]

Wolves was a fairly stodgy performance to be fair aside from the opening 15 mins. Villa was more the outlier IMO.

We had an energy and a hunger against Villa that I've not seen from us in years. Probably not since Poch. Football can be strange like that sometimes - it's not a lack of will or effort. Sometimes the match circumstances are just right, you get a bit of momentum and off you go. If we can produce that against Chelsea and Everton, I think we'll be fine. If not, it's chew your fingernails time.

Leeds were smart and sat on Bentancur which hurt us (this is where not having a Romero and his passing hurts a lot). Once Maddison came on he dragged people all over and wanted the ball.

 

[Mikey10]

I have to say after some confidence building displays and the last two victories I was surprised how for periods last night we returned to type in as much as sinking into our shell and looking a bit clueless in how to deal with the situation.

Some of the fluidity I'd been witnessing had evaporated. No-one really knowing where each other was, or was going to be. Stopping and taking two/three different looks before having any idea where to play the ball next. Looking disjointed again. Bad choices/decision making.

I'm not sure if it's the weight of playing at home (and never winning) ?
I think I'd be quite happy if BOTH our final games were away tbh.

It sounded so quiet in the stadium last night, very different to the atmosphere at the Brighton game (although with the same points return, I suppose). I think the crowd's anxiety transmitted itself onto the pitch.

Hopefully with the Everton game kicking off at 4.00pm on a Sunday plenty with be three or four pints in by kick off (I know that I will be!), enough to take the edge off the anxiety and turn any nervous energy into positive sound.

 

[thfcsteff]

BTW re: the 'non-pen' this sort of lays a marker for the 'he touched the ball' theory (still not convinced he did)...

 

[DaveT316]

It sounded so quiet in the stadium last night, very different to the atmosphere at the Brighton game (although with the same points return, I suppose). I think the crowd's anxiety transmitted itself onto the pitch.

Hopefully with the Everton game kicking off at 4.00pm on a Sunday plenty with be three or four pints in by kick off (I know that I will be!), enough to take the edge off the anxiety and turn any nervous energy into positive sound.

I have to say, in terms of atmosphere, it was pretty unpleasant where I was standing. "clam" this, "fudging prick" that.

I went with a mate who hadn't been for five odd years and he commented on how toxic it was. I did counter - by way of explanation, rather than excuse, that it might be down to the sense of real jeopardy there is for a lot of people, rather than just one odd bad performance. However some of it I found quite inexcusable and it felt like a few people were on the verge of needing treatment for an aneurysm.

I certainly wouldn't be taking my five year old to where I sit any time soon, it was nasty. GHod knows how it will turn if the unthinkable happens on the final day. I don't think I'll be hanging around...

 

[Daisuk]

I don't think it's was a mistake....as it couldn't conclusively be proven the defender hadn't touched it.

Likewise flip it round and Gilet had given it ....it couldn't conclusively be proven he had touched it, so the pen would have stood.

So technically it couldn't be a mistake as the ref would be right no matter what decision he gave

Schrödingers penalty.