***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Expensive Stoke***

[DeanoAustin]

Not disagreeing with this at all, but by that stage (arguably even now considering we would need well over 2 points per game to get Europe) the season is over anyway in terms of league position - things massively hinge on whether he can win a trophy or not. Might as well wait until end of the season, if Levy in the coming weeks/months decides Ange isn't the man and then he has enough time to properly plan to get the next man in, and getting the best man for the job will be easier in the summer than now unless someone unexpectedly falls into his lap. Or, we get our players back from injury and the last 2/3 months Ange gets the team playing and producing as we all want and then Levy then has a decision to make. Either way, I expect Levy will give him the season now (unless we really do get to relegation scrap territory)...

I think that's fair and reasonable and the right way to approach it. And you have to say that Levy wasn't right with all of those sackings so his approach with Ange is showing a chairman who wants to change which is a positive.

The only caveat here is the one you put in - if we're in a relegation fight, Levy may need to act. The next two games are huge. At the moment, we have an 8 point cushion. If we get 4-6 points, I think we're pretty much safe. If the unthinkable happens, we could be within 3-5 points of the relegation zone. At that point, Ange's position will be as close to untenable as you can get. Lots of football to be played before that point though.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Did anyone think we'd get a result at the Gooners (where we haven't won for 15 years) with our depleted/knackered squad? Really?

I'm absolutely not happy, particularly with that first-half performance, but I think we need to be a bit realistic.

I did honestly think we could get a draw just cos they are crap at taking their chances. Yet when they are crap...we can find new ways to be crapper

 

[DeanoAustin]

Well I did caveat this with not seeing the game. I just noticed the sub thing when reading about the result.

I noticed you said on the other thread about players being dead on their feet and not being able to function like control and hold up.

Realistically, you can always get Reggie on. He an experienced guy who knows the drill. He brings energy. So whether that is Porro off and Spence to RB, or Spence to Reggie, you just get those fresh legs on that pitch.

I think there's been that case to get Lanks on as well for a while. He knows where the back of the net is and you're 2-1 down. Throw him on with Solanke and let the latter drop into 10. Or take Solanke off.

Game management really is about disruption when you're trying to change things. I see Ange being disrupted by other PL managers e.g. Fulham. I don't yet see Ange disrupting other managers. A bench is a great way to do that.

Did we ever try a plan B formation tonight. What exactly did we change to alter the outcome? I've not seen much over the last 18 months.

We set up less cavalier than a typical Ange side with 3 fairly conventional/deeper midfield players and the full backs weren't in ridiculous positions much in the first half. So there was a change there but some of that may have been because we just couldn't get out.

Second half, he hooked the two most defensive of our midfielders (Sarr and Bissouma) and brought on two more attacking players (Maddison and Johnson) which I thought was nuts. However, despite leaving a lot of space, we did carry a bit more threat second half and we didn't concede like I was sure we would.

So Ange did deviate from his default tactics and formation to be fair to him. We just weren't very good.

 

[demotw]

The thing is Ange has had a few opportunities to give the remmaing players a rest and he's chosen not to. That is something we can be critical of because that gamble or decision has backfired.

We have had senior players like Spence and Reggie available and unused for long periods and some of the younger players not yet tried out even for minutes like Lankshear. I respect his decision with the young players because only he knows if they are ready or not but if he wanted or needed to give players a rest he has to call on the squad he has available.

That may be true, the trouble is you never know the condition of the players who are on the bench in terms of carrying knocks so while it may be easy to assume we can rotate, and to some degree with the FB's you mentioned i agree, its not always black and white.

It's also easy to say xx player is a LB, just pop him into the team. It doesn't work like that, they need to understand the tactics and the way the team are setup or it just becomes disjointed (which to be fair is how it feels at the moment). Either way, I can't remember a time when our entire back 4 and keeper has been out for this length of time before, our best midfielder has barely been able to play (Bents) and our attack is literally run into the ground game after game. With all of that, i'm seeing kind of what i expect to see in terms of inconsistent performances.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I did honestly think we could get a draw just cos they are crap at taking their chances. Yet when they are crap...we can find new ways to be crapper

1 win in 31 at Arsenal
1 win in 31 at Anfield
1 win in 34 at Chelsea

That's 3 wins in 96 away league games to those clubs. You can't blame Ange and this side for much of that but it does tell a lot about our club unfortunately.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

1 win in 31 at Arsenal
1 win in 31 at Anfield
1 win in 34 at Chelsea

That's 3 wins in 96 away league games to those clubs. You can't blame Ange and this side for much of that but it does tell a lot about our club unfortunately.

But we win there all the time don’t we

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'd keep Son, I think with a bit more rotation he can still do a job and it's worth keeping some experience around. Agree with the other 2, Romero is great on the ball but he's never switched on, always out of position on crosses. He's also someone we could get a decent fee for.

The key words in your post
He can do a job
That’s the issue
We think some of these players can do a job yet we’re taking about players on huge money

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well, Dragusin spent the last 5 mins as an extra forward LOL!

I wonder how throttled Reggie is given his lack of football, but yes, that would've been a possible move, another would've been Solanke off, Moore on and Richy at CF.

If Reggie is the answer for so many we have even bigger issues
This's is a player that even clame didn’t play
And we would be even more screwed without him currently playing which is even more bizarre

 

[Muttley]

This seems like an interesting thing to track, so I've added it as a report to my website. You can do it for any manager from their Reports page.

Here's Ange's: https://thfcdb.com/people/ange-postecoglou/reports



So you're right, he has made more subs when winning than losing. But he's made more subs when not winning (171)

Total while winning: 148 subs
Total while drawing: 74 subs
Total while losing: 97 subs

But how does that compare to others? I'm not sure you can draw too much from it.

Next step might be to add the final result

(I woke at 4am to watch the game this morning so I hope my logic and these numbers are correct)

Thanks for doing this. These are awesome stats.

I think they all add into the set of data points for the day of reckoning. At the moment we're definitely in a phase where the narratives are built to defend Ange and there's already been a couple on this topic. I've said a bunch of times, but taking single games to make a judgment is pointless. We just lost to a club that has challenged for the title recently, with only one key player out but an incredibly strong squad. There is no shame in that.

However, looking at long term trends is where it gets interesting for Ange.

 

[Mrs Vert]

I had mixed feelings about signing Maddison. Yes we needed creativity. But immediately making him vice captain set off some alarm bells for me.

Agree but maybe the thinking would be, he steps up and becomes inspired by it and gets better......it did not

 

[braineclipse]

He has his legitimate excuses for the period since the injuries started however Is it wrong to expect more than relegation form? What happened to rising above adversity? We can't just write off weeks/months of poor results & performances due to injuries. Currently he's doing a shìt job - yes there are reasons and excuses as to why that is the case but it's a shìt job all the same.

I think it's fair to expect more. To me not getting to more is not a reason to sack him.

I've expected this period to be really though, ever since we got that long injury list. Not sure how tough I expected it to be, not sure how useful very specific expectations are for a period like this.

 

[Mrs Vert]

1 win in 31 at Arsenal
1 win in 31 at Anfield
1 win in 34 at Chelsea

That's 3 wins in 96 away league games to those clubs. You can't blame Ange and this side for much of that but it does tell a lot about our club unfortunately.

Thank GHod I managed to pick the game be at to see us beat Arse. Was a glorious day.

 

[Mrs Vert]

1 win in 31 at Arsenal
1 win in 31 at Anfield
1 win in 34 at Chelsea

That's 3 wins in 96 away league games to those clubs. You can't blame Ange and this side for much of that but it does tell a lot about our club unfortunately.

But in many of those games at all those places, we had so many opportunities to get wins and for whatever reason mucked it up.

I just don't know what is wrong with this club. The decades, players and managers change...but it still remains the same

 

[Mrs Vert]

where Yang?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But in many of those games at all those places, we had so many opportunities to get wins and for whatever reason mucked it up.

I just don't know what is wrong with this club. The decades, players and managers change...but it still remains the same

Mentality
It’s not talent because we have had many times where we have had better players
But mentally prepared players… not for me
I’m gonna pick on son again big only because he is our longest serving star
He has won more with his country than his club and that is an Asian games trophy
This is a guy with more premier league goals than most strikers can manage in their career and he isn’t a striker. His only hope for actually winning something is this season in the cups
After 10 years ish
Has he accepted that
Is that his lot
Is he happy with that
It seems that way
I hope I’m wrong
We have a lot of that

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What we miss
And it showed massively yesterday is that player who will do something unpredictable
Teams who have players who do the same thing game after game become easier to manage
We know what Arsenal will do game after game hence why they have regressed despite spending on their squad
We know what city will try and do … same issue. They have no one doing anything different
Pool have players doing some clever stuff to change things like gakpo
Palmer at Chelsea does exactly that
For Saudi Sportswashing Machine it’s Gordon and isak
These kind of players are the gold dust that changes games and we don’t have anyone

 

[P.D.]

The key words in your post
He can do a job
That’s the issue
We think some of these players can do a job yet we’re taking about players on huge money

I think it's more than a job, he offers leadership (not sure how inspiring he actually is in terms of team talks) and experience which are vastly underrated particularly when we don't have a lot of it left. It's clear he's on the decline but that doesn't make him a bad player overnight, he still offers a useful option, is a decent finisher and there's a place for that within the squad. He may not be an automatic starter in the big games but he still has plenty to offer.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think it's more than a job, he offers leadership (not sure how inspiring he actually is in terms of team talks) and experience which are vastly underrated particularly when we don't have a lot of it left. It's clear he's on the decline but that doesn't make him a bad player overnight, he still offers a useful option, is a decent finisher and there's a place for that within the squad. He may not be an automatic starter in the big games but he still has plenty to offer.

I don’t agree
He offers so little on the pitch now
It could be he is injured but he is out highest paid player who can’t keep up with play and lacks the technical side needed for the role he is being asked to do
I never see any leadership or rarely…
He did go over yesterday when the ref warned Bergvall
He should never have been made captain and he IMO he should now be a sub for when we’re ahead. Instead wee flogging him every game and he looks worse and worse

 

[glasgowspur]

Mentality
It’s not talent because we have had many times where we have had better players
But mentally prepared players… not for me
I’m gonna pick on son again big only because he is our longest serving star
He has won more with his country than his club and that is an Asian games trophy
This is a guy with more premier league goals than most strikers can manage in their career and he isn’t a striker. His only hope for actually winning something is this season in the cups
After 10 years ish
Has he accepted that
Is that his lot
Is he happy with that
It seems that way
I hope I’m wrong
We have a lot of that

Been saying it for years, settlers, that what we attract.
Talented players, but not driven players.
The ones we stumble upon, Modric, bale, Harry, walker, Carrick et Al all move on.
For all that I loved them look at Jan, Dembele, Eriksen, Toby, they got too comfy here, no real expectations to step up and win.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Been saying it for years, settlers, that what we attract.
Talented players, but not driven players.
The ones we stumble upon, Modric, bale, Harry, walker, Carrick et Al all move on.
For all that I loved them look at Jan, Dembele, Eriksen, Toby, they got too comfy here, no real expectations to step up and win.

A great player should look to move on
If they believe they are better than us
It’s a good thing provided they are at that level