***OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Burnlio, Sat Jan 24th, 3pm***

[harr1984]

Just read this bit on the BBC Sport website;

"But if Frank thought this would ease the growing anger of travelling fans he would have been sorely mistaken as he once more felt the full force of their fury after the final whistle.

Indeed, the discontent surfaced even in the first half as Spurs fans chanted "sideways and backwards everywhere we go" as the ball was passed around aimlessly.

Micky van de Ven's opening goal was greeted with ironic chants of "we're staying up" from the visitors' section.

And, once the final whistle sounded, Frank walked off to deafening chants of "sacked in the morning" from his own fans and other more colourful phrases of the uncomplimentary variety."

I have to say, that first chant did make me laugh

He's lost the fans, it's inevitable whether he is sacked today, next week or at the end of the season. But right now we are sleep walking our way to a relegation battle and there is zero point keeping him on now. Our record over the past few months is horrendous, as much as it really warms my heart to see where were the better team against the might of Burnley it's a results business and we aren't seeing any semblance of results.....

 

[harr1984]

Yeah, really could do with some fine, or not so fine, margins to go our way in the coming games.

Hoping that Palace, Forest and Leeds lose today/tomorrow is not a good feeling. Particularly knowing the fixtures we have coming in February.

Sorry but I want Forest to win and keep the Hammers stranded in the bottom 3. At the end of the day it's the teams points who are 3rd bottom we really have to worry about, and I can't stand them...,

 

[glasgowspur]

He's lost the fans, it's inevitable whether he is sacked today, next week or at the end of the season. But right now we are sleep walking our way to a relegation battle and there is zero point keeping him on now. Our record over the past few months is horrendous, as much as it really warms my heart to see where were the better team against the might of Burnley it's a results business and we aren't seeing any semblance of results.....

Every manager I can remember has had a point where I've thought "he's done, it's only a matter of time", there becomes an air of inevitability about it.
I'm not getting that with Frank, I don't understand why and I don't think it's a good thing.
Feels like we are drifting.

 

[afsoc4life]

Every manager I can remember has had a point where I've thought "he's done, it's only a matter of time", there becomes an air of inevitability about it.
I'm not getting that with Frank, I don't understand why and I don't think it's a good thing.
Feels like we are drifting.

Perhaps that is because Levy is no longer there. Or perhaps there is something in his contract that is so punitive that we don't want to fire him.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Every manager I can remember has had a point where I've thought "he's done, it's only a matter of time", there becomes an air of inevitability about it.
I'm not getting that with Frank, I don't understand why and I don't think it's a good thing.
Feels like we are drifting.

I'm not sure we are drifting, I think its a case of not being able to put two good weeks together because of injuries. We can't put any emphasis on being a lot better when we play one team one week and inevitably the posts are moving and we have to, on average, account for 2 changes the manager wouldn't likely make come the next.

I am not saying manager don't have to deal with injuries, they do, but equally they are all struggling for consistency from what I can see too. We are 8 points of bottom 4 and 8 points off the top floor, that is massively telling about us and also the state of the league and their inability to get any consistency.

I don't think we have been anywhere near as bad as what people are making out, mid week we were superb and yesterday we were the much better side, West Ham was abysmal but I thought we were decent enough against Villa and Bournemouth.

We can't seem to get any momentum going. Frank has made mistakes BTW, I am not saying he hasn't, but there are as always at Spurs issues that are greater than the manager.

Our current injury list reads like a horror show of players you would miss

 

[Muttley]

I'm absolutely baffled how you can mention those two goals and not bring Romero into it.
The first goal he is marking no one, not a soul within five yards of him. Danso has at two attackers.
The second one, well the second one is just fudge up after fudge from our "captain and defensive leader". 30 yards from goal he rushes out and misses the ball and player leaving a huge hole behind him.
While the player that he failed so miserably to engage makes his way into the gap left by him, Romero saunters back paying more attention to the Linesman than what's actually happening in his defensive line.
Then to cap it all the player he left is stannding in the space Romero should be in to shoot on goal virtually unmolested.
That second goal is on no one but Romero.

Only because everyone else had covered that aspect. My view is always that it is very rare that there is one root cause for a single goal. There are usually multiple culprits and Romero plays his part as the baddy in a fair few. So don't be baffled.

I think Frank has a decision to make with Romero who is perhaps being all action because of the state of play of the club. Romero crawled off that pitch. Problem is, when you get a really tired body you also get a tired mind. I'm wondering if Romero stayed at home more and just focused on being a centre half whether he could eradicate a few of these errors. The trade off with this is that it is Romero and VDV are getting the goals.

This season is going to get uglier. We need 11 dogs of war on that pitch every game. I'd also like guys like Spence and Xavi to be little more Romero or Porro. I know which pairing I'd be in the trenches with.

 

[braineclipse]

Solanke is a critical enabler to a system. He was for Ange and he will be for Frank. There's always better out there but he's one of a kind in our squad in my opinion. We will need a competing number 9 as we look beyond Richi and Muani. Be nice to think one of our own young lads can step up.

Did you notice the game patterns as Solanke got tired through the 90 mins? Little things like as the strength sapped out of him he started to lose more of the physical one on ones. He also wasn't working right across the line as the legs tired

I just want to see the guy 100% match fit. We should never judge player form before that happens really.

Definitely agree that we need to see what Solanke can actually do under this/another manager.

Also though. We could have kept Tel in the CL squad and maybe Solanke would have been fresher for this game. We could have started Muani against Dortmund and not have Xavi start twice in quick succession when at least somewhat injured. Or started Gallagher in the 10 role against Burnley to have Xavi come on with fresh legs. Or started Spence at RB VdV at LB and not continued to run Porro absolutely into the ground.

I said before the Dortmund game that the Burnley game should be the biggest priority. I still think that.

Part of why I think it may be time to part ways with Frank is that he now seems stuck in a very short term, game by game, best players, need to win this game mode. No doubt influenced by the pressure he's under.

When Solanke and others were tiring against Burnley Frank also had the really obvious option of bringing on Tel for Danso. Go back to 4-2-3-1, some fresh legs and a new threat in the final third to help out Solanke. Another attacking player on when we really needed a goal to go ahead.

 

[glasgowspur]

Perhaps that is because Levy is no longer there. Or perhaps there is something in his contract that is so punitive that we don't want to fire him.

I certainly think if Levy was here Frank would be gone.

 

[harr1984]

Every manager I can remember has had a point where I've thought "he's done, it's only a matter of time", there becomes an air of inevitability about it.
I'm not getting that with Frank, I don't understand why and I don't think it's a good thing.
Feels like we are drifting.

I think because we don't really know much of the new leadership, and also the lack of options to replace right now. Also the lack of obvious replacements, we don't even have a Ryan Mason at the club to fall back on....

 

[Muttley]

Definitely agree that we need to see what Solanke can actually do under this/another manager.

Also though. We could have kept Tel in the CL squad and maybe Solanke would have been fresher for this game. We could have started Muani against Dortmund and not have Xavi start twice in quick succession when at least somewhat injured. Or started Gallagher in the 10 role against Burnley to have Xavi come on with fresh legs. Or started Spence at RB VdV at LB and not continued to run Porro absolutely into the ground.

I said before the Dortmund game that the Burnley game should be the biggest priority. I still think that.

Part of why I think it may be time to part ways with Frank is that he now seems stuck in a very short term, game by game, best players, need to win this game mode. No doubt influenced by the pressure he's under.

When Solanke and others were tiring against Burnley Frank also had the really obvious option of bringing on Tel for Danso. Go back to 4-2-3-1, some fresh legs and a new threat in the final third to help out Solanke. Another attacking player on when we really needed a goal to go ahead.

You could well be right. Frank is definitely applying his own filters to the squad and inevitably with a short term focus. As an example, you don't mention Scarlett above but I believe there have been more occasions where he should have been used as a 9 with his back to goal. He could have put the big shift in that the others haven't. Even the other day, Frank said he had 11 outfield players available from the normal group and didn't include Scarlett, who should be getting his agent to get him out of our club.

Frank definitely has a different filter on Tel than us fans though. Unlike you, I do think Solanke needed to be in the CL squad but was shocked not to see Tel starting against Burnley. He was our best attacker against Hammers. Tel ends up with 17 mins across the last 2 games and that isn't right to me.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm not sure we are drifting, I think its a case of not being able to put two good weeks together because of injuries. We can't put any emphasis on being a lot better when we play one team one week and inevitably the posts are moving and we have to, on average, account for 2 changes the manager wouldn't likely make come the next.

I am not saying manager don't have to deal with injuries, they do, but equally they are all struggling for consistency from what I can see too. We are 8 points of bottom 4 and 8 points off the top floor, that is massively telling about us and also the state of the league and their inability to get any consistency.

I don't think we have been anywhere near as bad as what people are making out, mid week we were superb and yesterday we were the much better side, West Ham was abysmal but I thought we were decent enough against Villa and Bournemouth.

We can't seem to get any momentum going. Frank has made mistakes BTW, I am not saying he hasn't, but there are as always at Spurs issues that are greater than the manager.

Our current injury list reads like a horror show of players you would miss

View attachment 21443

Injuries are certainly a big part of it, and I hope someone at the club is seriously looking into this, but I just do not anything like a pattern of play.
The better, and I use the term loosely, play just looks to me like a lot running around with no plan.
We concede poor goals and score from set pieces, that imv is not sustainable.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Injuries are certainly a big part of it, and I hope someone at the club is seriously looking into this, but I just do not anything like a pattern of play.
The better, and I use the term loosely, play just looks to me like a lot running around with no plan.
We concede poor goals and score from set pieces, that imv is not sustainable.

But as a unit we are not defending badly IMO, in yesterdays game we defended really well till the individual mistakes, its not like we are being carved open at will, not saying thats a good thing but its comes down to people like Romero and Danso having to sharpen up.

 

[glasgowspur]

But as a unit we are not defending badly IMO, in yesterdays game we defended really well till the individual mistakes, its not like we are being carved open at will, not saying thats a good thing but its comes down to people like Romero and Danso having to sharpen up.

I don't think we do anything well as a unit, for me we look like a team of individuals with one or reasonable connections between a couple of players.

 

[braineclipse]

You could well be right. Frank is definitely applying his own filters to the squad and inevitably with a short term focus. As an example, you don't mention Scarlett above but I believe there have been more occasions where he should have been used as a 9 with his back to goal. He could have put the big shift in that the others haven't. Even the other day, Frank said he had 11 outfield players available from the normal group and didn't include Scarlett, who should be getting his agent to get him out of our club.

Frank definitely has a different filter on Tel than us fans though. Unlike you, I do think Solanke needed to be in the CL squad but was shocked not to see Tel starting against Burnley. He was our best attacker against Hammers. Tel ends up with 17 mins across the last 2 games and that isn't right to me.

In reference to conversations about what could change if we get a caretaker. I think maybe that's one thing that could change. Get out of this short term/next game focus. Make some smart decisions including priorities.

I know Tel is far from the finished product, and I don't think he's some kind of saviour. But I just don't get it.

This is maybe harsh on Frank, but he seems desperate. Can understand the hybrid back 3 against Dortmund because of the players missing. Get a result there so we do the same against Burnley. Would we have seen that against Burnley if not for that working against Dortmund? Whatever sticks to the wall approach that seems desperate rather than rational to me. It's often a part of what happens when managers really feel the pressure. They become worse managers than they are when comfortable.

 

[Bishop]

18 months, not 5 or 6 seasons and would have been easily recoverable with right moves. This narrative that the team has been trash since Poch is revisionism at it's finest.

4th, 6th, 7th, 4th, 8th, 5th, 17th with 2 cup finals and a Europa win.

Reality the team was less than 5 points off top 4 in December, if the club had fired Frank then, brough in a decent manager and given them a signing or two in Jan window we would have everything to still play for. Now the goal is not to be squeaky bum time until end of season.

fudging amazing how this clubs fans went from top 4 as a goal lacked ambition -> well squad is brick, you can't expect us to beat Burnley and West Ham and Fulham

You massively overrate this squad. If we had sacked Frank as you suggested what makes you think we would have gotten the couple of players that manager would need? We haven't gotten them in now for Frank so we would we for the new guy?

Also if the new guy needs a couple of players to have it all to play for wouldn't Frank also? We saw what we got with an attacking dominate performance; poor passing, poor execution and poor finishing.

 

[Baleforce]

In reference to conversations about what could change if we get a caretaker. I think maybe that's one thing that could change. Get out of this short term/next game focus. Make some smart decisions including priorities.

I know Tel is far from the finished product, and I don't think he's some kind of saviour. But I just don't get it.

This is maybe harsh on Frank, but he seems desperate. Can understand the hybrid back 3 against Dortmund because of the players missing. Get a result there so we do the same against Burnley. Would we have seen that against Burnley if not for that working against Dortmund? Whatever sticks to the wall approach that seems desperate rather than rational to me. It's often a part of what happens when managers really feel the pressure. They become worse managers than they are when comfortable.

Surely a caretaker would be even more next game focused, as that would make them more likely to keep the job.

 

[Rorschach]

Yeah, really could do with some fine, or not so fine, margins to go our way in the coming games.

Hoping that Palace, Forest and Leeds lose today/tomorrow is not a good feeling. Particularly knowing the fixtures we have coming in February.

Indeed. I hate the fact we are looking down the table and not up but I'm not panicking just yet. Surely we can eke out 4 wins before the end of the season.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

This is maybe harsh on Frank, but he seems desperate. Can understand the hybrid back 3 against Dortmund because of the players missing. Get a result there so we do the same against Burnley. Would we have seen that against Burnley if not for that working against Dortmund? Whatever sticks to the wall approach that seems desperate rather than rational to me. It's often a part of what happens when managers really feel the pressure. They become worse managers than they are when comfortable.

Surely thats the opposite of desperate? Changes because of injury, works, goes again with it considering injuries? Would have worked fine but for brain farts rather than systematically

I think thats the opposite of desperate, I think thats fairly level

I think there is a level of needing wins for confidence and thats etched on his face BUT alot of what is being done is because of injuries, the squads so unbalanced its untrue and something we don't seem to be addressing this month for Frank or any manager

 

[Baleforce]

Indeed. I hate the fact we are looking down the table and not up but I'm not panicking just yet. Surely we can eke out 4 wins before the end of the season.

Last season I was worried because results were better than performances, we were conceding goals due to tactical failings, right now performances are better than results, and the goals we concede are from individual errors. Things will pick up and we'll be fine.

 

[Raziel]

You massively overrate this squad. If we had sacked Frank as you suggested what makes you think we would have gotten the couple of players that manager would need? We haven't gotten them in now for Frank so we would we for the new guy?

Also if the new guy needs a couple of players to have it all to play for wouldn't Frank also? We saw what we got with an attacking dominate performance; poor passing, poor execution and poor finishing.

Mate, I don't rate Frank

- but the club isn't helping him (maybe they know he's a dead man?), to this point they have made 1 opportunistic buy of a player profile we don't need and a youth punt.
- the assumption would be, having realized the club needs to act, it would have included a player or two aligned to what the new manager needs.

The last point is why you and I disagree re squad, you describe a poorly coached squad yet refuse to acknowledge it's the guy doing the coaching. Again yesterday, we watched a poorer squad with a less experienced manager look better coached and organized, they knew how to transition, they knew how to make short passes, within the limits of their squad they have produced results better than them (draws against us, Pool and City?) while we produce results worse than the squad (West Ham, Burnley, Wolves, etc.)