Official - Defoe

[milo]

Re: Jermain Defoe

I can provide you with that from my new website, which is a database of all Spurs matches. I've checked with Scaramanga and he says its OK to promote the site in context of a discussion.

The site is Spurs since 1882. It has a complete record of matches with line-ups for most (I'm still adding them). You can search the record by season, competition, opposition, manager, player or any combination and then output the results as an interactive list of matches (with links to details such as line-ups) or appearance records.

The feature that is useful here is that you can search for matches involving two players, namely Berbatov and Defoe. The link for the list of matches involving Defoe and Berbatov is: http://www.spurs1882.org/index.php?...ue&searchtype=default&restrictParameters=true

Click on the match box or the blue box on the left for further details on each match. You can also further refine the search with the form at the bottom of the page, selecting only games they both started, only league games, etc.


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P.S. The match record can also be output as a summary of results. Unfortunately I just noticed that this doesn't work for the multi-player searches. Its does for all the other searches (season, dates, competition, opposition, manager, single player), but the two player search is done in a different way and I hadn't tried this before. I'll try and fix this and add the link.

Try this one: http://www.spurs1882.org/index.php?...ue&searchtype=summary&restrictParameters=true

This search works very slowly for some reason I've yet to fathom and might time out. Here is the result:

View attachment 999

That's fantastic, cheers mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

I dont think our tactic was to shut up shop. I think the goal so early in the second half and their second straight after our third made half our players nervy and natural to sit back defend your goal.

Youre correct though - we couldnt do it again and again we would get hammered

I think you're right. Nobody comes out for a second-half already planning to defend. That's why it took us 10-15 minutes to figure out exactly what Utd were doing. And what they have, that no-one else in the division has, are two players who can play in that hole with world class results. When we tried to man-mark Scholes, he simply dropped off so as Rooney, VP and Kagawa had the space to hit the channels, feed one-twos via the wide players and cause chaos inside the full-backs (for me, Walker was never solid enough with Caulker in the second-half, was responsible for Kagawa's goal and very nearly left Caulker in the brick a couple more times, not the least of which was when VP missed his sitter).

What I saw was that once we realized we were getting battered, we made the very smart move to let Scholes have the possession that far out in exchange for denying Rooney time on the ball in the hole, and to try and close up the channels as much as possible. It's why the main danger in the last 30 mins were set-pieces and crosses.

I absolutely do not think we would purposely pre-plan that situation, but what I DO think it shows is a management team who have a very clear and specific ability to make a good tactical switch on the spot, and who choose a team which has 11 players capable of doing it! I'm sorry, for all the VdV love, he would NOT have been able to help much in that second-half. It's arguable that his inclusion cost us a point at newcash!

 

[THFC6061]

Re: Jermain Defoe

I can provide you with that from my new website, which is a database of all Spurs matches. I've checked with Scaramanga and he says its OK to promote the site in context of a discussion.

The site is Spurs since 1882. It has a complete record of matches with line-ups for most (I'm still adding them). You can search the record by season, competition, opposition, manager, player or any combination and then output the results as an interactive list of matches (with links to details such as line-ups) or appearance records.

The feature that is useful here is that you can search for matches involving two players, namely Berbatov and Defoe. The link for the list of matches involving Defoe and Berbatov is: http://www.spurs1882.org/index.php?...ue&searchtype=default&restrictParameters=true

Click on the match box or the blue box on the left for further details on each match. You can also further refine the search with the form at the bottom of the page, selecting only games they both started, only league games, etc.


--------------------------------------------
P.S. The match record can also be output as a summary of results. Unfortunately I just noticed that this doesn't work for the multi-player searches. Its does for all the other searches (season, dates, competition, opposition, manager, single player), but the two player search is done in a different way and I hadn't tried this before. I'll try and fix this and add the link.

Try this one: http://www.spurs1882.org/index.php?...ue&searchtype=summary&restrictParameters=true

This search works very slowly for some reason I've yet to fathom and might time out. Here is the result:

View attachment 999

Looks like a very impressive website.

I wish you every success with it.

 

[milo]

Re: Jermain Defoe

I think you're right. Nobody comes out for a second-half already planning to defend. That's why it took us 10-15 minutes to figure out exactly what Utd were doing. And what they have, that no-one else in the division has, are two players who can play in that hole with world class results. When we tried to man-mark Scholes, he simply dropped off so as Rooney, VP and Kagawa had the space to hit the channels, feed one-twos via the wide players and cause chaos inside the full-backs (for me, Walker was never solid enough with Caulker in the second-half, was responsible for Kagawa's goal and very nearly left Caulker in the brick a couple more times, not the least of which was when VP missed his sitter).

What I saw was that once we realized we were getting battered, we made the very smart move to let Scholes have the possession that far out in exchange for denying Rooney time on the ball in the hole, and to try and close up the channels as much as possible. It's why the main danger in the last 30 mins were set-pieces and crosses.

I absolutely do not think we would purposely pre-plan that situation, but what I DO think it shows is a management team who have a very clear and specific ability to make a good tactical switch on the spot, and who choose a team which has 11 players capable of doing it! I'm sorry, for all the VdV love, he would NOT have been able to help much in that second-half. It's arguable that his inclusion cost us a point at newcash!

I'm not sure that it was a tactic. I think that we were under siege and just dropped deeper and deeper to try and cope with it. This lead us to having no one up field to receive balls out of defence to relieve pressure. In a nutshell I think that we got stuck in a loop and could not find a way out.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

I'm not sure that it was a tactic. I think that we were under siege and just dropped deeper and deeper to try and cope with it. This lead us to having no one up field to receive balls out of defence to relieve pressure. In a nutshell I think that we got stuck in a loop and could not find a way out.

Well to my eye, we clearly realized that if we tried to follow Scholes and stop him seeing the ball second-half, we would get ripped apart due to the space opened by a shadowing midfielder. Someone somewhere realized that Rooney was absolutely killing us there. So to my eye, we dropped in, stayed as compact as we could and gave up chasing Scholes down.

 

[jts1882]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Looks like a very impressive website.

I wish you every success with it.

Thanks, coming from someone with one of the best stats websites, that is a compliment. Have a look around, look for errors or things that can be improved/added.

I started this project for my own amusement and learning. I want to use datebases and graphic display for a serious project so this is my learning project. There have been two notable conclusions:

1. The verification step is a tremendous amount of work. If I'd realised I probably wouldn't have started. Its certainly the most time consuming part. Even so the Defoe v Berbatov comparison was useful as I picked up several errors in the line-up record.

2. Once the database is set up properly (or reasonably), its incredibly powerful. Adding features to extract information can be quite simple (or not depending on the case). This is an area I'm open to requests as its certainly more fun than the verification.

If you are interested in working together on trying to get definitive Spurs data, I'd be happy to collaborate. Your site was one of the sources I used, but there are incompatibilities. It would be nice to resolve these. For instance, I could generate results in a format of your choosing for comparison. I also have additional data that is not in your tables (e.g. line ups in wartime years and 1995-96). If you want this in a convenient form, just ask, although the information is available on my website if you select he right options.

Anyway, I'm open for ideas and suggestions from anyone.

 

[milo]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Well to my eye, we clearly realized that if we tried to follow Scholes and stop him seeing the ball second-half, we would get ripped apart due to the space opened by a shadowing midfielder. Someone somewhere realized that Rooney was absolutely killing us there. So to my eye, we dropped in, stayed as compact as we could and gave up chasing Scholes down.

ManU didn't make a big tactical change at half time, they just took off Giggs (who was having a quiet game) and replaced him with Rooney. Kawaga moved to the left and Rooney filled the space he vacated in the middle. Kawaga was on fire at the beginning of the second half and I think that we lost our discipline and and got dragged deeper and deeper. If it was a game plan to drop back why not just put Defoe on Scholes?

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Jermain Defoe

United's most dangerous period was the start of the second half with Rooney, Rafael and Nani on the right and Kagawa, Evra and RVP on the left. We were outnumbered several times. It changed around the time they put on Welbeck and we put on Sigurdsson.

 

[parklane1]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Well to my eye, we clearly realized that if we tried to follow Scholes and stop him seeing the ball second-half, we would get ripped apart due to the space opened by a shadowing midfielder. Someone somewhere realized that Rooney was absolutely killing us there. So to my eye, we dropped in, stayed as compact as we could and gave up chasing Scholes down.

This is exactly what happened, as i have said earlier Scholes with all his possession did not really hurt us. However if we had come out to close him down it would have left space in behind for them to exploit.

 

[milo]

Re: Jermain Defoe

This is exactly what happened, as i have said earlier Scholes with all his possession did not really hurt us. However if we had come out to close him down it would have left space in behind for them to exploit.

So why not put Defoe on him to relieve the pressure and try and move up the pitch a bit? If sitting back was a tactic, I am a little worried because 9 times out of 10 it will fail.

 

[parklane1]

Re: Jermain Defoe

So why not put Defoe on him to relieve the pressure and try and move up the pitch a bit? If sitting back was a tactic, I am a little worried because 9 times out of 10 it will fail.

They left Defoe up front to keep at least two of their players back, he worked his socks off and if he had dropped in to mark Scholes we would have been overun.

 

[Bishop]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Ive been looking for site exactly like yours.

Wow fantastic work!

 

[Little Luka]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Well to my eye, we clearly realized that if we tried to follow Scholes and stop him seeing the ball second-half, we would get ripped apart due to the space opened by a shadowing midfielder. Someone somewhere realized that Rooney was absolutely killing us there. So to my eye, we dropped in, stayed as compact as we could and gave up chasing Scholes down.

Kind of.

AVB gave Dembele the orders of tracking Scholes, I don't know exactly when, but he was called to the sideline and got the instructions, after which he stuck closer to Scholes for a long time. But he had no steam left to track him, plus that gave Carrick much more time on the ball.
And after that we get to what you are talking about, we get Thudd on and move on to sitting deep with everything and trying to close channels and the hole.

As for Defoe and Dembele, they ran out of steam to pressure the way we did in the first half. Combine this with the addition of Rooney and we were pretty much forced to drop deeper with more players, or Scholes would eventually have found someone and we'd have lost that game. The fact that AVB saw this and made the changes is to me a great relief.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

ManU didn't make a big tactical change at half time, they just took off Giggs (who was having a quiet game) and replaced him with Rooney. Kawaga moved to the left and Rooney filled the space he vacated in the middle. Kawaga was on fire at the beginning of the second half and I think that we lost our discipline and and got dragged deeper and deeper. If it was a game plan to drop back why not just put Defoe on Scholes?

Because we would not have scored again. Plus you need to keep a sense of honesty in the game!

I think we lost our discipline for 15 mins of the second-half and re-discovered it. I would say replacing Giggs with Rooney is quite a switch; Rooney's movement in that area of the pitch is first-class. This simple sub allowed Kagawa and VP to spin off Rooney and work the channels. I think we figured out quickly that detailing Scholes would lead to us being dragged out of shape.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Kind of.

AVB gave Dembele the orders of tracking Scholes, I don't know exactly when, but he was called to the sideline and got the instructions, after which he stuck closer to Scholes for a long time. But he had no steam left to track him, plus that gave Carrick much more time on the ball.
And after that we get to what you are talking about, we get Thudd on and move on to sitting deep with everything and trying to close channels and the hole.

As for Defoe and Dembele, they ran out of steam to pressure the way we did in the first half. Combine this with the addition of Rooney and we were pretty much forced to drop deeper with more players, or Scholes would eventually have found someone and we'd have lost that game. The fact that AVB saw this and made the changes is to me a great relief.

Good point, Dembele was closer to Scholes but he was also making sure Scholes stayed deep without pressing him too much. To my eyes anyway (which are admittedly shakey sometimes!)...

if we'd pressured in the second-half like we did the first half, we'd have lost that game IMHO simply because we cannot play like that for 90 mins at OT yet. They'd have danced in the spaces IMHO...

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

They left Defoe up front to keep at least two of their players back, he worked his socks off and if he had dropped in to mark Scholes we would have been overun.

This.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

So why not put Defoe on him to relieve the pressure and try and move up the pitch a bit? If sitting back was a tactic, I am a little worried because 9 times out of 10 it will fail.

Mate,

I don't think it is a regular tactic. As I mentioned before, I think it was a spot shift made in the heat of battle...Steff

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Jermain Defoe

United's most dangerous period was the start of the second half with Rooney, Rafael and Nani on the right and Kagawa, Evra and RVP on the left. We were outnumbered several times. It changed around the time they put on Welbeck and we put on Sigurdsson.

Rooney was in the hole mate.

 

[milo]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Good point, Dembele was closer to Scholes but he was also making sure Scholes stayed deep without pressing him too much. To my eyes anyway (which are admittedly shakey sometimes!)...

if we'd pressured in the second-half like we did the first half, we'd have lost that game IMHO simply because we cannot play like that for 90 mins at OT yet. They'd have danced in the spaces IMHO...

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should have played in the second like we did in the first. Personally, I don't think we could have even if we wanted to. United went up a gear at the beginning of the 2nd half and caught us on the hop. Added to this, several of our key players noticeably tired in the second half and our options from the bench were limited.

 

[rxl]

Re: Jermain Defoe

Rooney was in the hole mate.