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Official - Defoe

ArcspacE said:
Irrespective - he was poor.

If Arry was dead set on 4-4-2 vs Utd then Defoe deserved to start ahead of him. And even if he thought Saha could spark up - Defoe should have come on the moment Young scored the second.
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"Irrespective" is to completely ignore context.

Yes he was poor.

If he was the only one then absolutely drop him for Defoe.

If he was part of a collective failure of the whole team? Not so clear cut.
 
I don't think you can coach someone into not being offside all the time. He shows intelligence with a some of his goals, West Brom away is a good example, the way he shifted the ball to his right and shot instantly giving the defender no time to block his shot. When it comes to being offside, he rarely shows any intelligence. I think either you have the instincts and know how when it comes to being onside, or you don't. Timing your run to perfection is a skill, Hernandez is one of the best I've seen in recent years.
 
elltrev said:
Nice posts Rorshach / braineclipse. At times I do wonder what coaches do with players on the training pitch. The frustrating thing with Defoe is his seeming complete lack of awareness when it comes to his position on the pitch (e.g. as for the two offside chances last night). Defoe is physically and technically superior to Robbie Keane IMO, but the advantage that Robbie always had is that he always seemed to be thinking about his movement. His head was always on a swivel, and he was constantly looking for little pockets of space, or the right time to make a run behind the defence.

Both of Jermain's goals last night were world class, but he will always be let down (IMO) by his relatively poor movement. And unfortunately, for me, the net effect of his mixture of moments of brilliance and moments of frustration is worse than other players who are less brilliant and less frustrating. Maybe it's because it's frustrating always thinking how good he has the potential to be...
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The odd thing for me is that he goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. It seems to be an accepted fact on here that his movement is poor - and yet at times yesterday (alone) it was outstanding.

Trouble is, moments after some unreal play he will be caught 10 feet offside without a care in the world.

Even the commentary last night were saying how good his movement is. And it often is excellent, just never consistently for 90 minutes - let alone a run of games.
 
I understand his frustration for not gettin many games but the fact is it is tough to accomodate him the way we play, especially away from home
 
braineclipse said:
The offside one is the result of another problem, his off the ball movement isn't good enough. It's unfortunate, cause it's holding him back and I struggle to understand why we haven't been able to teach him how to get better at it after all this time.
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Oh GHod not this old chestnut, not from you as well.
 
The fact that he seems to split our fanbase is telling I think. I don't think he's as good as some of our fans make him out to be, but he's nowhere near as bad as people like GB would have you believe.
 
nw7 yid said:
When everyone is fit and on form, our best midfield/attack combination consists of: Parker, Modric, Bale, Lennon, VDV, Adebayor. It's when we play this front six that we're truly devastating and when we're at our brilliant best.

I'm pleased that Defoe is scoring goals and looking sharp, and I fully support giving him chances and starting him when others are unfit or off form, but putting him in the starting XI means that our team is weaker than when we play the aforementioned front six.
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which isn't the case at the moment, and your assumption was based on what happened when Defoe was out after a great start to his partnership with Ade.

If defoe is firing on all cylinders, then its a more potent goalk delivery machine to play him with Ade.

Common sense is that you pick the best delivery method to feed the best scoring partnership
 
mick cooper said:
Oh GHod not this old chestnut, not from you as well.
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If you disagree, what do you think about the two offside chances last night? Do you think he was unlucky to be offside? To me it was typical Defoe - he seemed to be giving absolutely no thought to his position, or the timing of his runs.
 
And imo the best we have looked all season was Saudi Sportswashing Machine with a team that included Saha and Kranjcar just saying...
 
Well the stats don't lie right - Defoe was the most offside player in the Premiership last season, and by some distance too - twice the offsides of the next closest player (saw this in Four Four Two).
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don't think you can coach someone into not being offside all the time. He shows intelligence with a some of his goals, West Brom away is a good example, the way he shifted the ball to his right and shot instantly giving the defender no time to block his shot. When it comes to being offside, he rarely shows any intelligence. I think either you have the instincts and know how when it comes to being onside, or you don't. Timing your run to perfection is a skill, Hernandez is one of the best I've seen in recent years.
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Should be possible to coach someone into bending their runs at the very least, sounds easy enough. Movement in and around the box is a skill, I refuse to believe that it's a skill that somehow can't be taught and learned. People are learning to be surgeons an astronauts, but the skill of movement is somehow beyond teaching? I don't buy it.

His technique when shifting the ball and shooting is very good. He's been good at that for a long time imo. It's about so much more than offside with his movement though imo.

mick cooper said:
Oh GHod not this old chestnut, not from you as well.
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I take it you don't think it's true?

Do you think his movement is good, but just not Hernandez/Nistelrooy top class? Or do you think he's one of the best in the business?

I think his movement is average at best. Getting tired of none of our strikers realizing that when Bale is one on one with a full back 5 yards from the touch line he will beat him and he will put in a quality cross just in front of the goal. Surely this can be improved on? It's not just our strikers and not just Defoe. Our movement is an area where we can improve. Even when dominating games we struggle to get players into the box for crosses for example.
 
braineclipse said:
Should be possible to coach someone into bending their runs at the very least, sounds easy enough. Movement in and around the box is a skill, I refuse to believe that it's a skill that somehow can't be taught and learned. People are learning to be surgeons an astronauts, but the skill of movement is somehow beyond teaching? I don't buy it.

His technique when shifting the ball and shooting is very good. He's been good at that for a long time imo. It's about so much more than offside with his movement though imo.


Well you would think coaching the team to better at set pieces would be easy also, but we are still poor at them. I come back to Hernandez, look at the runs he makes, I don't think he's been taught that, I think he just has it in him.
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Jurgen the German said:
Well you would think coaching the team to better at set pieces would be easy also, but we are still poor at them. I come back to Hernandez, look at the runs he makes, I don't think he's been taught that, I think he just has it in him.[/B]
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Sure some people will take to it easier, have more talent for it. But that doesn't mean that people who aren't naturals can't improve.

I agree that Hernandez is one of the best around.
 
elltrev said:
If you disagree, what do you think about the two offside chances last night? Do you think he was unlucky to be offside? To me it was typical Defoe - he seemed to be giving absolutely no thought to his position, or the timing of his runs.
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Movement off the ball is showing for the ball carrier, running channels that the ball can be played to or down, making a pass if it can be worked through by the skill of the passer, or getting into space that can be fed.
Defoe is a gambler, because if he knows if he gets it right he gets a yard on his man, and a better shot at goal.

I don't disagree that he gambles too often and gets it wrong some times, but I disagree that he doesn't move or show for the midfielders or strike partners to play on to him. Some times he dummies defenders and makes them open channels, which I like to see him do, and he is always begging for the ball. When pickings are slim he will look for it.

What people have to start to recognise is that aginst better sides he plays better defenders and they are harder to outpace/outfox and at the same time he is getting less feeds, less space and has to fight for scraps. People spend too much time blaming the sniper and forgetting that he cant hit the mark if no-one feeds him the bullets

yes he does run off without them too much. If you never gamble, you never win the prize
 
elltrev said:
If you disagree, what do you think about the two offside chances last night? Do you think he was unlucky to be offside? To me it was typical Defoe - he seemed to be giving absolutely no thought to his position, or the timing of his runs.
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missed the game due to coming out of anaesthesia
 
mick cooper said:
Movement off the ball is showing for the ball carrier, running channels that the ball can be played to or down, making a pass if it can be worked through by the skill of the passer, or getting into space that can be fed.
Defoe is a gambler, because if he knows if he gets it right he gets a yard on his man, and a better shot at goal.

I don't disagree that he gambles too often and gets it wrong some times, but I disagree that he doesn't move or show for the midfielders or strike partners to play on to him. Some times he dummies defenders and makes them open channels, which I like to see him do, and he is always begging for the ball. When pickings are slim he will look for it.

What people have to start to recognise is that aginst better sides he plays better defenders and they are harder to outpace/outfox and at the same time he is getting less feeds, less space and has to fight for scraps. People spend too much time blaming the sniper and forgetting that he cant hit the mark if no-one feeds him the bullets

yes he does run off without them too much. If you never gamble, you never win the prize
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What's annoying Mick is that he doesn't score as much against the top teams as he should, he is a bit of a flat track bully. To his credit, he's scored against United and City this season. But if you compare his record against the likes of United, Arsenal, Chelsea etc to someone like Darren Bent who scores against everybody, it's frustrating. It's not like Bent is much better than Defoe either.
 
In the last 2 years Defoe has scored against United, City, Liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Chelsea.
 
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