New New Manager Poll (The Lets Get It Right This Time Edition)

[Lilbaz]

Yes, because Levy constantly sacks managers even though they manage to overachieve.

Yet we still do overachieve and get cl football. Is that unfair to the managers? Probably. But it seems to work.

Levy is ruthless no doubt. If it looks like the team is going downhill you are gone. I'd prefer if we gave the likes of poch, jol and redknapp more time. But it's not my money on the line.

 

[alekaras]

Why does exciting football mean not winning things? I don't get the logic.

That's not what I said. I said that winning football will invariably be pleasing to the eye with a few exceptions: see Atletico. But exciting football alone is not a guarantee you will win things: see 1982 Brazil (not the best example, as it's the WC and not a league competition, but you get my point). There has to be a dose of pragmatism when you're the team with the 5th/6th biggest budget, which will likely result in the football not always being exciting. Now if you have unlimited resources, you'll probably get both. But we don't, so when we play better teams we'll have to dial back the flair to get the result.

 

[Lilbaz]

That's not what I said. I said that winning football will invariably be pleasing to the eye with a few exceptions: see Atletico. But exciting football alone is not a guarantee you will win things: see 1982 Brazil (not the best example, as it's the WC and not a league competition, but you get my point). There has to be a dose of pragmatism when you're the team with the 5th/6th biggest budget, which will likely result in the football not always being exciting. Now if you have unlimited resources, you'll probably get both. But we don't, so when we play better teams we'll have to dial back the flair to get the result.

Or we could play good football and still get results against teams with bigger budgets. There are managers out there that do that. Still at feyenord is top of the league with a budget much less than ajax. Did it with az aswell. They might have won the league if it wasn't for covid. Only finished 2nd on goal difference.
Gasperini at atalanta regularly finishes above teams with bigger budgets while playing some of the most attacking foorball in europe.

 

[Raziel]

Yet we still do overachieve and get cl football. Is that unfair to the managers? Probably. But it seems to work.

Levy is ruthless no doubt. If it looks like the team is going downhill you are gone. I'd prefer if we gave the likes of poch, jol and redknapp more time. But it's not my money on the line.

And the goal of any decently run organization should be so efficient that you get more out of your investments than your competition.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yet we still do overachieve and get cl football. Is that unfair to the managers? Probably. But it seems to work.

Levy is ruthless no doubt. If it looks like the team is going downhill you are gone. I'd prefer if we gave the likes of poch, jol and redknapp more time. But it's not my money on the line.

Maybe if instead of paying out considerable money sacking managers we added that same amount to our transfer budget for players we might've won a few pots instead of just getting CL football? Maybe if we'd allowed one of the managers to actually have a few years with a good budget then they would've done what Arteta has done at Arsenal this season?

 

[scaramanga]

He took a 6th place team to top 2, which was literally the criteria stated in your post.

A stable top 2, not a bounce in and out one.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't think it needs to be someone that has done that and that is not how we should be approaching the manager search. Rather we should be looking for someone whose management and football philosophy has the highest likelihood of achieving that. And not as a one-off, but in a sustained fashion.

That's what I always thought. But our experience shows that sometimes the difference between 10th-6th and 6th-2nd is a major step that some can't make.

 

[scaramanga]

Arteta.

 

[Lilbaz]

Maybe if instead of paying out considerable money sacking managers we added that same amount to our transfer budget for players we might've won a few pots instead of just getting CL football? Maybe if we'd allowed one of the managers to actually have a few years with a good budget then they would've done what Arteta has done at Arsenal this season?

Maybe. I'm not saying levy is right in his choices. But i can't say he's wrong either. It's a what if situation.

 

[scaramanga]

Got to a point where it was just fine margins he didn't get over the line. A team like we had could easily win things.

Or is that fine line the difficult bit? Is the added pressure, required mentality, willingness to push the boundaries of the rules, etc. the part that makes the difference and those managers don't have it?

 

[billyiddo]

A stable top 2, not a bounce in and out one.

Ok, can you give the name of a manager that meets the criteria of taking a '5th/6th place club' to 'top 1 or 2' in the league for longer than a single season or indeed just someone who matches a bounce in and out? I don't think there is one, bar Klopp, so if we open it up to top 3 can you find one who does better than 3rd 2nd 3rd (in order to meet the new demand of stability)

For reference Liverpool & City are the only sides to have consecutive top 2 PL finishes in the last ten years in the PL.

Edit : Simeone at A.Madrid would qualify tbf but given the differences between La Liga & The PL wrt number of financially competitive teams they only have Real & Barca to contend with whereas we have 4-5 others.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Or is that fine line the difficult bit? Is the added pressure, required mentality, willingness to push the boundaries of the rules, etc. the part that makes the difference and those managers don't have it?

No it's bigger than that.
The hard part is simply being a 4-6th rated team and wanting to be a 1-3 rated team in this league.

That is a mammoth last step.
There are many things out of your control/influence in your way.
That's why many can flirt with the EL places, then go no further and drop away.
The resources required to give a push a sustained go would ruin most clubs.
It can be done, but most of what you control has to be pitch perfect, and even then sustaining it is a continual tight rope walk.

We are the one club outside the traditional big players trying to put a floor underneath our efforts.

 

[Mcfee]

The question is what does "true to ourselves" really mean? If it's a particular style of playing, then we should be prepared to suffer not winning anything for a while, if that style is just pleasing to watch, but doesn't produce results.

I would rather we play winning football, whatever "winning football" happens to be at any given time. If it's coupled with a beautiful playing style, great. If not, but it produces league titles and CL trophies, I'm fine with that too. Atletico aside, however, winning football will invariably also include football that is pleasing to the eye. And if it doesn't, a league title or CL trophy will more than make up for it.

Whichever way you slice it, the football that you play should be one that wins games. Beautiful football with no results will eventually get tiring too.

Atletico are a great example. The type of football Simeone has them playing fits perfectly with the culture of the club, they’ll forever be underdogs trying to overcome the odds against a privileged all powerful neighbour. I love Atletico but their style wouldn’t last long at Spurs imo - even if it brought success.

Beautiful football with no results will eventually get tiring too.

True, but not as quickly as rubbish football with no results!

I suppose in our case the key question is what constitutes “results”?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Haven’t we suffered enough?



Worrying that the board were a month behind most people in working that out.

But not worrying that they probably considered someone's personal health before bringing the hammer down?

 

[alekaras]

Maybe if instead of paying out considerable money sacking managers we added that same amount to our transfer budget for players we might've won a few pots instead of just getting CL football? Maybe if we'd allowed one of the managers to actually have a few years with a good budget then they would've done what Arteta has done at Arsenal this season?

Before we even get to transfers, we need to have the best damn analytics, scouting, and football strategy/operations departments of anyone. THAT'S where the money should have gone, not just now, but in the past 10 years. If we had done that, transfers and managers would then be an afterthought. In our position we can't buy success, so we better become the best in the business in creating it. That's where Brentford and Brighton have succeeded and I expected better from Levy in this department.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Yes, because Levy constantly sacks managers even though they manage to overachieve.

So Levy is unaligned with the supporters who want these managers to carry on at the point they are sacked?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

. Now if you have unlimited resources, you'll probably get both. But we don't, so when we play better teams we'll have to dial back the flair to get the result.

I never felt we had to dial anything back when Poch was here. Go toe to toe with anyone, home or away.

 

[scaramanga]

Ok, can you give the name of a manager that meets the criteria of taking a '5th/6th place club' to 'top 1 or 2' in the league for longer than a single season or indeed just someone who matches a bounce in and out? I don't think there is one, bar Klopp, so if we open it up to top 3 can you find one who does better than 3rd 2nd 3rd (in order to meet the new demand of stability)

For reference Liverpool & City are the only sides to have consecutive top 2 PL finishes in the last ten years in the PL.

Edit : Simeone at A.Madrid would qualify tbf but given the differences between La Liga & The PL wrt number of financially competitive teams they only have Real & Barca to contend with whereas we have 4-5 others.

Klopp until the "asthma" medication ran out is a perfect example. I don't know who there is but anyone fitting that criteria should be preferable to the other two categories.

 

[scaramanga]

No it's bigger than that.
The hard part is simply being a 4-6th rated team and wanting to be a 1-3 rated team in this league.

That is a mammoth last step.
There are many things out of your control/influence in your way.
That's why many can flirt with the EL places, then go no further and drop away.
The resources required to give a push a sustained go would ruin most clubs.
It can be done, but most of what you control has to be pitch perfect, and even then sustaining it is a continual tight rope walk.

We are the one club outside the traditional big players trying to put a floor underneath our efforts.

Then we need someone who is pitch perfect and can walk a tightrope.

The reality of being a club with our financial might against the others has to be factored in by anyone who wants the job. They must be confident that they can work past the financial handicap we have when compared to the global brands and the dirty oil money.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Maybe if instead of paying out considerable money sacking managers we added that same amount to our transfer budget for players we might've won a few pots instead of just getting CL football? Maybe if we'd allowed one of the managers to actually have a few years with a good budget then they would've done what Arteta has done at Arsenal this season?

Jeez.
So adding probably something circa to £10m max compensation to our transfer funds would have a greater chance of bringing success than changing a manager who by definition of being in contention for the sack is probably in some kind of negative spiral.

We have only been able to supply a good budget for the last 3 seasons and even that has been dented by zero matchday income for 18 months and supplemented by owner investment. There is definitely a before and after stadium era.