Mousa Dembele

[Millsy_Yiddo]

I think that to a degree you have to accept that when you have a midfield dribbler it often doesnt come off: if it did we'd score 78 goals every game. His strength is dribbling, therefore he needs to get on the ball and move forwards with it at his feet. This sort of play obviously carries with it a reasonably low success rate, but your not going to turn a dribbling midfielder in his mid 20's into an intricate passer so some sort of acceptance of the limitations associated with his style is required, imho.

My point is not that he should be turned into an intricate passer, I agree with you, his strength is dribbling. My point is he needs to learn to dribble in the right area's and at the right time. I've seen him multiple times try that little cryuff turn out on the touchline at the half way line only to be robbed of possession when all he had to do is roll the ball back to the full back. His dribbling not coming off is fine if he's in the final third at the time, when it doesn't come off in the wrong areas then it's a problem.

He often beats 2 and 3 men, creates space for himself and you see Bale running on the shoulder of the fullback screaming for a through ball, but Dembele turns inside to beat another man. If he learns that once he creates the space to release the ball it would push him to another level IMO.

He 100% needs to retain his dribbling, because hes great at it but I think he just needs to refine it a little and he could be really top class for us.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Meaningless?

No that's a load of bull. Those stats say that we have a far better record when Dembele is in the side compared to when he isn't. That sounds like a pretty clear meaning to me.


Doesn't break up the play? He's been excellent defensively.




Create or score? I'll give you that, but in the system we seem to be playing that's not what he is there to do.

Easily knocked off the ball? :ross:

His dribbles are usually pretty good, not blind alleys. He takes on a man or two and then passes the ball off to someone better placed.


I look forward to seeing Dembele progress in the side, as with Siggurdsson who has impressed me recently. Dempsey is a puzzle, as a starter i'm not sure, but as an option on the bench when the game is scrappy he is a good option to have.

So according to your 'logic' Bale was to blame for all those poor results when he first came into the side? How can there be any other explanation, as the stats proove it?

 

[Spursalot]

So according to your 'logic' Bale was to blame for all those poor results when he first came into the side? How can there be any other explanation, as the stats proove it?

At no point did i say Demeble was solely responsible for those results, so your attempt at my 'logic' is highly flawed. Nice attempt at a straw man though.


The stats don't prove it no, but proving something is completely different to something having meaning.


In fact you'll struggle to prove much definitively in football because it's a highly objectively based game.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

At no point did i say Demeble was solely responsible for those results, so your attempt at my 'logic' is highly flawed. Nice attempt at a straw man though.


The stats don't prove it no, but proving something is completely different to something having meaning.


In fact you'll struggle to prove much definitively in football because it's a highly objectively based game.

If Dembele's presence is being linked to our success, than surely Bale's presence must be linked to our defeats when he came in? No you didn't state that, but you insinuated it. "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

 

[Spursalot]

If Dembele's presence is being linked to our success, than surely Bale's presence must be linked to our defeats when he came in? No you didn't state that, but you insinuated it. "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

Yes, Bale's presence would be linked to our defeats as well. Why shouldn't it be? He wasn't 'to blame' as you put it, but he shoulders some of the responsibility for it.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Yes, Bale's presence would be linked to our defeats as well. Why shouldn't it be? He wasn't 'to blame' as you put it, but he shoulders some of the responsibility for it.

Well, if you are aware that all the players bear some responibilty for results, why bother to single out Dembele's responsibilty for our recent good form? What was the point of it? You have contradicted yourself.

 

[Spursalot]

Well, if you are aware that all the players bear some responibilty for results, why bother to single out Dembele's responsibilty for our recent good form? What was the point of it? You have contradicted yourself.

How have a i contradicted myself?

I have not.

All players bear responsibility for results, however they don't always bear the same degree of responsibility.



Lloris fudges up causing us to concede and lose a game? More responsibility for the loss. Bale score a hat-trick in a win? He has more responsibility for the win.


Dembele provides a solidity in midfield that we don't have without him? More responsibility for our good performances.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

How have a i contradicted myself?

I have not.

All players bear responsibility for results, however they don't always bear the same degree of responsibility.



Lloris fudges up causing us to concede and lose a game? More responsibility for the loss. Bale score a hat-trick in a win? He has more responsibility for the win.


Dembele provides a solidity in midfield that we don't have without him? More responsibility for our good performances.

You began by attempting to link Dembele's presence in the side with a positive run of results, then you backtracked when I made the observation that you had to similarly link Bale with our defeats when he came in. You said all players bear responsibilty, which they clearly do. This is a contradiction. Why reference Dembele's stats, if everyone bears responsibility?

 

[Spursalot]

You began by attempting to link Dembele's presence in the side with a positive run of results, then you backtracked when I made the observation that you had to similarly link Bale with our defeats when he came in. You said all players bear responsibilty, which they clearly do. This is a contradiction. Why reference Dembele's stats, if everyone bears responsibility?

I didn't backtrack, i refuted you when you suddenly claimed it would mean that Bale was solely responsible for the results. He wouldn't be. Just as i never claimed Dembele was solely responsible for our positive results.


Everyone bears responsibility, in different degrees. You seem to be seeing things in either black or white, whilst i am seeing everything in a shade of grey.


Just look at the ratings threads. If a player score a 9 and another scores a 6, who do you think had the greater affect upon the game, and therefore deserves the greater amount of praise?


The stats say we play worse when Dembele is not playing. Watching the game i agree with this assessment. Therefore the stats have meaning. Simples.



You seem more interested in attempting to score imaginary points than discuss Dembele, so i'm out now.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I didn't backtrack, i refuted you when you suddenly claimed it would mean that Bale was solely responsible for the results. He wouldn't be. Just as i never claimed Dembele was solely responsible for our positive results.


Everyone bears responsibility, in different degrees. You seem to be seeing things in either black or white, whilst i am seeing everything in a shade of grey.


Just look at the ratings threads. If a player score a 9 and another scores a 6, who do you think had the greater affect upon the game, and therefore deserves the greater amount of praise?



You seem more interested in attempting to score imaginary points than discuss Dembele, so i'm out now.

If everyone bears degrees of responsibilty then there was no point in singling out Dembele. This is my point. Shades of grey??????? What by associating Dembele's presence in the team with our win ratio?
That is pretty black and white. You have since attempted to wriggle out of this absolutist postion by conceding the team responsibilty for results, because to not have done, would have been absurd.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Well we're not a world class team so that's not a problem. Any team in the league would love to have Dembele in their side.

He wouldn't get into Utd's, City's, or Chelsea's midfield. Probably not Arsenal's either.

 

[AuroRaman]

He wouldn't get into Utd's, City's, or Chelsea's midfield. Probably not Arsenal's either.

Not saying you're wrong but according to a lot of fans of the teams you've mentioned, and this is just by opinions on forums mainly, they'd love Dembele in their midfield.

 

[indianspur]

He wouldn't get into Utd's, City's, or Chelsea's midfield. Probably not Arsenal's either.

massively disagree......

Gareth Barry/Javier Garcia or Mousa Dembele?:-k
50 year old Scholes/Giggs or Dembele?8-[
Ramsey/Arteta or Dembele? :-#

Chelsea maybe he wouldnt, but only just

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

massively disagree......

Gareth Barry/Javier Garcia or Mousa Dembele?:-k
50 year old Scholes/Giggs or Dembele?8-[
Ramsey/Arteta or Dembele? :-#

Chelsea maybe he wouldnt, but only just

Rose tinted specs and selective team selections. And let's be brutally honest, if City or Chelsea wanted him they'd have gotten him. I'd take a Yaya swap with him any day.

 

[Spursalot]

Rose tinted specs and selective team selections. And let's be brutally honest, if City or Chelsea wanted him they'd have gotten him. I'd take a Yaya swap with him any day.

Nobody here is saying he's better then Yaya Toure. That's a silly statement. You've picked the one player who everyone will agree with as being better then Him.


I think he'd walk into Chelsea, United or Arsenal's Midfield, and so do their fans. Emirates Marketing Project's midfield he wouldn't, because of Yaya, Dembele is better than Barry/Garcia but you wouldn't put two players who have such similar play styles next to each other.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Nobody here is saying he's better then Yaya Toure. That's a silly statement. You've picked the one player who everyone will agree with as being better then Him.


I think he'd walk into Chelsea, United or Arsenal's Midfield, and so do their fans. Emirates Marketing Project's midfield he wouldn't, because of Yaya, Dembele is better than Barry/Garcia but you wouldn't put two players who have such similar play styles next to each other.

Actually I've picked the one player at City who I think he plays in the same position as. I could possibly go for Silva too but I think Silva plays more advanced than a deeper lying midfielder that isn't there to primarily defend. Milner plays more wide in my opinion so I didn't want to compare him to him. I wouldn't compare Dembele to a defensive midfielder. It's Barry/Garcia vs Sandro/Parker in that argument....certainly not Dembele.

At Arsenal it is Arteta vs Dembele, and I do agree that is a close one but I think Arteta is more effective.....just.

As for Chelsea? I'd take Ramires and Lampard over Dembele in a heartbeat. I don't think he is up against Mata, Oscar or Hazard because they like to play further up the pitch and not so central.

 

[indianspur]

Rose tinted specs and selective team selections. And let's be brutally honest, if City or Chelsea wanted him they'd have gotten him. I'd take a Yaya swap with him any day.

why selective? those players have all played central midfield for their respective clubs this season.

Carrick alongside Dembele?
Yaya with Dembele?
Wheelchair and Dembele? (thank GHod that wont happen)

Dembele would instantly walk into and improve those 3 teams' centre midfields

 

[Spursalot]

Actually I've picked the one player at City who I think he plays in the same position as. I could possibly go for Silva too but I think Silva plays more advanced than a deeper lying midfielder that isn't there to primarily defend. Milner plays more wide in my opinion so I didn't want to compare him to him. I wouldn't compare Dembele to a defensive midfielder. It's Barry/Garcia vs Sandro/Parker in that argument....certainly not Dembele.

At Arsenal it is Arteta vs Dembele, and I do agree that is a close one but I think Arteta is more effective.....just.

As for Chelsea? I'd take Ramires and Lampard over Dembele in a heartbeat. I don't think he is up against Mata, Oscar or Hazard because they like to play further up the pitch and not so central.

Disagree with that one, it's more Wheelchair vs Dembele. Wheelchair may eventually be better, but he's not currently. Arteta is a play maker, which Dembele is not. Arsenal lack that defensive steel that Dembele would provide.


Ramires tends to play on the wing for Chelsea, so he's out. Lampard is further forward. With Chelsea it's more Mikel or Luiz when he plays as a midfielder.


You say you wouldn't class Dembele as a DM, but Yaya Toure is quite often classed as a DM.


I would class Sandro as a DM, and he often makes those kind of runs.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Disagree with that one, it's more Wheelchair vs Dembele. Wheelchair may eventually be better, but he's not currently. Arteta is a play maker, which Dembele is not. Arsenal lack that defensive steel that Dembele would provide.


Ramires tends to play on the wing for Chelsea, so he's out. Lampard is further forward. With Chelsea it's more Mikel or Luiz when he plays as a midfielder.


You say you wouldn't class Dembele as a DM, but Yaya Toure is quite often classed as a DM.


I would class Sandro as a DM, and he often makes those kind of runs.

I wouldn't class Toure as a DM personally. He is more box to box. And Lampard plays deep and makes late runs. He certainly doesn't play further forward in a number 10 role. Lampard usually sits alongside the DM which is what Dembele does alongside Sandro/Parker.

Wheelchair is better than Dembele. I hate the litte ****, but Wheelchair has the potential to be a top class midfielder.

 

[indianspur]

Dembele can adapt to play alongside any other midfielder. He can sit, he can play box to box, burst forward with the ball, has the ability to chase back and win the ball. Depending on his partner, he can adjust very easily