Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
So you never criticized AVB then for example? Even though he was with these players every week?
Sorry but it’s just such a lame argument.
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
Sorry but it’s just such a lame argument.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
If you say so, but IF you are one of those who moan about subs then its no surprise.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Pathetic
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Do not be harsh on yourself.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
BoL we all know that you think Poch is nearly perfect and there are always bigger, wiser reasons we can't grasp from the outside without his deep knowledge of the internal workings of the squad... is there ANYTHING you think Poch could improve upon, other than subs?
No, I just try and look at things from a couple of perspectives rather than just my own as a fan. I don’t think it’s logical to assume there is some massive benefit to doing subs the way this group of fans want them done that Poch just hasn’t realised yet, and I think there is perhaps an interesting debate in understanding why he doesn’t, and what benefits he derives from doing this his way in this context, rather than just straight up assuming he hasn’t figured out he can make them for beneficial reasons.
As I said, there is such an obvious and defined pattern with his subs that I will assume he has some logic behind it, some benefits he is deriving, as opposed to just not understanding that he is able to do something differently.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
But to be honest, i don’t really think of it as my role to criticise Poch, the manager, on things he knows way more than me about. Like I wouldn’t tell Jeff Bezos how to run Amazon. Can Bezos learn things? Yes, I’m sure he can. Could he ever learn them from me? Not a chance in hell. I’m happy to tell people who are peers, or in my own field what they could do better, because I actually have some insight, but I don’t here, and I put my trust in someone that does.
That’s just my perspective on the world. I find there to be more interesting debate and more learning to be had through trying to understand people in other fields and having a discussion there, as opposed to assuming I know what there is to know and acting like my take has any value. Because in this context, I don’t believe it does and I’m going to assume that Poch knows what he is trying to achieve from the way he does subs.
But to give you an example, last season when we lost at Anfield, I was pretty annoyed. We had just seen a month of teams sitting deep against Liverpool and getting results, and then we go there and concede two goals from our high line in the first 20 mins. I was so annoyed, and couldn’t understand why Poch didn’t set the team up to do something differently. But once I calmed down, I considered other things, like maybe changing approaches so drastically from game to game may not help our rhythm and the fact that we are generally consistent is because we believe in our way of playing. Or maybe he trusted the players and they let him down. Or maybe Liverpool were just really good and always about to escape their bad run of form. Or a million other things. Either way, me going ‘Poch needs to learn to be better at defending deep’ is just so laughably basic an analysis that it really doesn’t stack up. It’s much more interesting to understand the different nuances of why he didn’t do it, and what he hoped to gain. And yes, he had learned to play deeper this season, but it was his coaching staff that would have helped devise something appropriate.
So it’s not to say he doesn’t learn or can’t learn, I suppose I just have a problem with the idea of criticism, when we aren’t really in a position to criticise with the full picture. We can comment, we can certainly observe, and we can have our preferences of what we would prefer, but these would be too basic and Poch will have likely thought through the ramifications and advantages and disadvantages of other options on a much deeper level before going his way. ‘He needs to be better at subs’ or ‘he needs to let us defend deep’ are not things we can tell him with any great certainty without knowing the fuller picture of what he was trying to achieve by not doing the thing you wanted him to do.
That’s just my perspective on the world. I find there to be more interesting debate and more learning to be had through trying to understand people in other fields and having a discussion there, as opposed to assuming I know what there is to know and acting like my take has any value. Because in this context, I don’t believe it does and I’m going to assume that Poch knows what he is trying to achieve from the way he does subs.
But to give you an example, last season when we lost at Anfield, I was pretty annoyed. We had just seen a month of teams sitting deep against Liverpool and getting results, and then we go there and concede two goals from our high line in the first 20 mins. I was so annoyed, and couldn’t understand why Poch didn’t set the team up to do something differently. But once I calmed down, I considered other things, like maybe changing approaches so drastically from game to game may not help our rhythm and the fact that we are generally consistent is because we believe in our way of playing. Or maybe he trusted the players and they let him down. Or maybe Liverpool were just really good and always about to escape their bad run of form. Or a million other things. Either way, me going ‘Poch needs to learn to be better at defending deep’ is just so laughably basic an analysis that it really doesn’t stack up. It’s much more interesting to understand the different nuances of why he didn’t do it, and what he hoped to gain. And yes, he had learned to play deeper this season, but it was his coaching staff that would have helped devise something appropriate.
So it’s not to say he doesn’t learn or can’t learn, I suppose I just have a problem with the idea of criticism, when we aren’t really in a position to criticise with the full picture. We can comment, we can certainly observe, and we can have our preferences of what we would prefer, but these would be too basic and Poch will have likely thought through the ramifications and advantages and disadvantages of other options on a much deeper level before going his way. ‘He needs to be better at subs’ or ‘he needs to let us defend deep’ are not things we can tell him with any great certainty without knowing the fuller picture of what he was trying to achieve by not doing the thing you wanted him to do.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Sorry mate? You haven’t read the book?
Seriously...please read it first and then offer your thoughts. I have mentioned context several times...seriously, read the book and you will understand everything the guy is doing. TBH I was not into the timing of the book at all, but it does not appear to have affected anything whatsoever.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Nope, ive onpely said Ive taken it from what posters have said on here. I bought the book for my dad, was hoping to borrow it after him but he still hasnt read it so might have to buy it myself. I was also concerened about the timing of releasing a book with such context, but like you say we've been fine....
NoLimits01
Goran Bunjevcevic
^^^^^This^^^^^
I find it amazing how many people think they know more than one of the top managers in the Premier League
Right - So you cant criticise any professional footballer or manager as they have more experience than us right? Mourinho has won everything there is to win in the game, but he isnt beyond criticism - no one is. Its contructive criticism, its not like people are laying into him. Who on earth says they think they know more than Poch? Everyone has their weakness it doesnt hurt to highlight them and question where could improve....
NoLimits01
Goran Bunjevcevic
Ok calm down, jeeez
I think you might be getting confused between criticism (what you just did) and critique (what this is), here are some examples for clarification
- Criticism finds fault/Critique looks at structure
- Criticism looks for what's lacking/Critique finds what's working
- Criticism condemns what it doesn't understand/Critique asks for clarification
- Criticism is spoken with a cruel wit and sarcastic tongue/Critique's voice is kind, honest, and objective
- Criticism is negative/Critique is positive (even about what isn't working)
- Criticism is vague and general/Critique is concrete and specific
- Criticism has no sense of humor/Critique insists on laughter, too
- Criticism looks for flaws in the writer as well as the writing/Critique addresses only what is on the page
Wow and my therapist said I didn't learn anything in all those behavioural therapy classes
Oh and what @BrainOfLevy said as well in the rest of the post that I quoted
Since when does asking you a question mean Im not calm? Your post is no more than unnecessary waffle, you kindly put words in peoples mouth by claiming people 'think they know more than one of the top managers in the Premier League'. No one ever came close to suggesting that, some simply dont think he always makes best use of his changes or takes too long to do so. Its a discussion board and not everyone has to agree with every decision our coach makes - some dont like his subs, some dont like the personnel who get selected etc etc and choose to voice their opinions....Ok calm down, jeeez
I think you might be getting confused between criticism (what you just did) and critique (what this is), here are some examples for clarification
Also constructive criticism (bit of an oxymoron, but anyway) is normally defined as the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one, so your quoted post could be (loosely) described as constructive criticism as I have read and responded to it (I might even have taken it on board and learnt from it) but it would technically be classed as criticism if referring to a third party (such as Poch)
- Criticism finds fault/Critique looks at structure
- Criticism looks for what's lacking/Critique finds what's working
- Criticism condemns what it doesn't understand/Critique asks for clarification
- Criticism is spoken with a cruel wit and sarcastic tongue/Critique's voice is kind, honest, and objective
- Criticism is negative/Critique is positive (even about what isn't working)
- Criticism is vague and general/Critique is concrete and specific
- Criticism has no sense of humor/Critique insists on laughter, too
- Criticism looks for flaws in the writer as well as the writing/Critique addresses only what is on the page
Wow and my therapist said I didn't learn anything in all those behavioural therapy classes
Oh and what @BrainOfLevy said as well in the rest of the post that I quoted
NoLimits01
Goran Bunjevcevic
Now that's not very constructive
I don't think you understand the difference I'm making between critiquing a manager for making a substitution that in hindsight was ineffectual and criticising a manager because he did not do what you thought was best, thus giving the impression of your superior knowledge even though you do not have all of the facts or the skill/acumen/knowledge to actually do the job in person.
As you say its a discussion where people post their opinions, and this is mine
I don't think you understand the difference I'm making between critiquing a manager for making a substitution that in hindsight was ineffectual and criticising a manager because he did not do what you thought was best, thus giving the impression of your superior knowledge even though you do not have all of the facts or the skill/acumen/knowledge to actually do the job in person.
As you say its a discussion where people post their opinions, and this is mine
Obviously you're not understanding because this isnt a singular substitution that posters are talking about in hindsight he should have made, its the way he treats substitutions in general. He doesnt tend to make any subs before around 70 minutes unless forced to. Nothing to do with hindsight, its something he consistently does rather than be more adaptable to scenarios that crop up in a game...
NoLimits01
Goran Bunjevcevic
Ok, I'm not being dragged into a discussion about the writes and wrongs of how Poch manages substitutions, I don't have enough facts (or footballing knowledge ) to do that, I only used substitutions as an example but the same could apply to formations, new signings, injuries, blah, blah, blah.
My original post was how I agreed with BoL on not being in a position of knowledge to be able to criticise a PL Manager on his decisions the same as I couldn't criticise Pichai Sundararajan on running Google, even though I don't like some of their business practices, as I know I couldn't run Google as successfully as he does.
) to do that, I only used substitutions as an example but the same could apply to formations, new signings, injuries, blah, blah, blah.My original post was how I agreed with BoL on not being in a position of knowledge to be able to criticise a PL Manager on his decisions the same as I couldn't criticise Pichai Sundararajan on running Google, even though I don't like some of their business practices, as I know I couldn't run Google as successfully as he does.
RunTMC
Steven Caulker
Now that you mention this it got me thinking. Most other teams make their first subs around 60 mins. This is usually around the time that players start to wane and are that half a yard slower. Maybe our superior fitness means we don't need to make early subs for this reason. Plus with our ability to change formation easily mid game, there is also less reason to make tactical subs. Plus our superior fitness means natural opportunities present themselves as the opposition gets more timed.
I think all these things could be part of the reason why we tend to make subs 10 mins later than other teams
Im not denying that mate, obviously Poch has his reasons why he makes subs later. The point is there have been several games where changes should have been made earlier where matches arent going our way but his rigidness to this system with his subs means he hasnt. Look, its not a massive issue - dont want to turn it into a bigger thing than it is. Id just like him to demonstrate some more flexibilty in that area thats all....
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Ok calm down, jeeez
I think you might be getting confused between criticism (what you just did) and critique (what this is), here are some examples for clarification
Also constructive criticism (bit of an oxymoron, but anyway) is normally defined as the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one, so your quoted post could be (loosely) described as constructive criticism as I have read and responded to it (I might even have taken it on board and learnt from it) but it would technically be classed as criticism if referring to a third party (such as Poch)
- Criticism finds fault/Critique looks at structure
- Criticism looks for what's lacking/Critique finds what's working
- Criticism condemns what it doesn't understand/Critique asks for clarification
- Criticism is spoken with a cruel wit and sarcastic tongue/Critique's voice is kind, honest, and objective
- Criticism is negative/Critique is positive (even about what isn't working)
- Criticism is vague and general/Critique is concrete and specific
- Criticism has no sense of humor/Critique insists on laughter, too
- Criticism looks for flaws in the writer as well as the writing/Critique addresses only what is on the page
Wow and my therapist said I didn't learn anything in all those behavioural therapy classes
Oh and what @BrainOfLevy said as well in the rest of the post that I quoted
Ahhh! This is what I have been trying to articulate for a long while now, and you've just nailed it. I think that's the difference in 'Poch makes his subs late, this is interesting, I wonder if there are benefits to be gained from doing it his way, and I wonder what the drawbacks are, let's discuss' vs 'Poch needs to learn to make his subs quicker, because there are only benefits to be gained from changing his approach here, and we are suffering negatively because of his approach right now'.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
There are a lot of them about and most of them get their knowledge from winning the universe cup on kids abacus games.