Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[harr1984]

A fair way to state your POV for sure, even though we do disagree. I would say that your POV raises how we define "true winners" in life. I define "true winners" by a different standard to many. The quality of the journey -what you learn, how you apply it- is a huge part of "winning" for me. Personally (and I am aware the following is antithetical to many), I believe that 30 years spent working 12 hour days under immense stress whilst your life rolls through the grinder simply to achieve an SL 500, a couple of million and the promise of retirement at 61 is simply not "winning" enough. You can achieve success and balance in all areas. I believe that Poch has planted a "winning mentality" in us on his terms. The Juve games showed that. Clearly we can compete on the pitch in terms of skill, in terms of fight and spirit. Where we are still developing a final phase is in the "clown shoe" stakes, being able to be clamy and do clamy things to push over the line. I am split on that. I know we need to do it, and I believe the players do now too, but I don't love the idea. I have to also say that when we do win a game or two like that, there will be a chorus of our own support who will go bananas!
Anyway, appreciate the discursive element to your post, and one thing we can agree on is COYS!

Mate I’m loving our journey. Believe me I recognise the shift In Our mentality. But a winning mentality to me means more, it’s what the very top and successful teams in Europe have. That’s why I constantly said after the Juve first leg I still thought Juve would go through. And I’m not just saying that, I did. They know how to get the job done. They aren’t a better footballing team than us but they’ve been there time and time again and know how to win the critical games. They have that mentality. We are gaining the experience and are getting there, we are close. It’s simply the definition that is being disagreed on. I look forward to the glory we are on the cusp of producing and in a couple- few years time then we can really talk...

 

[milo]

you lot should just meet in a pub and save us all this grief...

P55 would just turn up at a different pub and then claim that is the one he meant all along

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I didn’t say winning one Fa Cup changes anything,but it’s a start. Can you tell me when anyone ever analysed a period of a team or individual sportsman who didn’t win anything and said ‘They had that winning mentality’? I bet you can’t. It’s often mentioned when successful teams have a sustained period of success. It’s not mentioned when a team is punching above their weight. Unless it’s on a Spurs forum of course....

Can you point to a period when anyone has analysed to try and detect winning mentality? I bet you cant.

Its not something people study. Its not a defining factor. Its just an ingredient in the mix of successful sides, an ingredient that needs to be there BEFORE success comes for the success to actually be achieved.

 

[milo]

Can you point to a period when anyone has analysed to try and detect winning mentality? I bet you cant.

Its not something people study. Its not a defining factor. Its just an ingredient in the mix of successful sides, an ingredient that needs to be there BEFORE success comes for the success to actually be achieved.

I think that it is largely just attributed to good sides after the event.

 

[milo]

I think that it is largely just attributed to good sides after the event.

I think that most of us mean fight and will to win when we talk about this, which we obviously have in spades. From what he has written so far, I think to P55 it doesn't mean anything more than just winning things.

 

[Pirate55]

I think that most of us mean fight and will to win when we talk about this, which we obviously have in spades. From what he has written so far, I think to P55 it doesn't mean anything more than just winning things.

Those that believe a "fight and will to win" is a WM simply do not understand the concept of a winning mentality. To get to the top of any tree requires more than just this alone. It requires a degree of ruthlessness to win we have so far not exhibited in the really big clutch games. As I have said, to beat Chelsea and United would be a start in demonstrating we have what it takes. Stage two would be to actually win a trophy.

If we continue to not win these sort of games, history will certainly judge us not to have a winning mentality and those that claim we have one now will look like fools.

 

[milo]

Those that believe a "fight and will to win" is a WM simply do not understand the concept of a winning mentality. To get to the top of any tree requires more than just this alone. It requires a degree of ruthlessness to win we have so far not exhibited in the really big clutch games. As I have said, to beat Chelsea and United would be a start in demonstrating we have what it takes. Stage two would be to actually win a trophy.

If we continue to not win these sort of games, history will certainly judge us not to have a winning mentality and those that claim we have one now will look like fools.

I think that you are being selective after the event. We have won plenty of big games and shown loads of fight. All you are doing is pointing to games that we have lost and an empty trophy cabinet.

Even the best sides lose games against other good sides. Football is a low scoring game of fine margins where the best side frequently doesn't win.

I don't think that winning an FA Cup only having played two decent sides would meet your definition of winning mentality. It certainly is less of a demonstration of it than finishing above both Man Utd and Chelsea in the league would be.

Can I suggest that you tone down the bluster and flimflam a bit. You are going to have to put your credentials out there if you want to be taken seriously when making statements like "Those that believe a "fight and will to win" is a WM simply do not understand the concept of a winning mentality."

 

[Pirate55]

So now you are projecting next season or the season after next?

I thought this discussion was about this season?

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Believe it or not, history will judge whether in fact we have a winning mentality now - not you. Will you still continue to argue this case then? Oh yes, I can see it now, "we had a winning mentality only we didn't actually win anything". Typical liberal attitude to a concept of ultimate success ( which you freely admitted you had in an earlier post).

Whether Poch has this degree of ruthlessness to achieve the final push is as yet untested. He has not (yet) won anything in his managerial career. For example, his comments on substitutions where he says he doesn't like making substitutions as he is concerned about the feelings of players being taken off, is a cause of worry for me. Ditto his non use of the dark arts. Put simply - " Is Poch too nice to be a winner?".

 

[thfcsteff]

Believe it or not, history will judge whether in fact we have a winning mentality now - not you. Will you still continue to argue this case then? Oh yes, I can see it now, "we had a winning mentality only we didn't actually win anything". Typical liberal attitude to a concept of ultimate success ( which you freely admitted you had in an earlier post).

Whether Poch has this degree of ruthlessness to achieve the final push is as yet untested. He has not (yet) won anything in his managerial career. For example, his comments on substitutions where he says he doesn't like making substitutions as he is concerned about the feelings of players being taken off, is a cause of worry for me. Ditto his non use of the dark arts. Put simply - " Is Poch a sandal-wearing liberal?".

Corrected.

 

[harr1984]

Can you point to a period when anyone has analysed to try and detect winning mentality? I bet you cant.

Its not something people study. Its not a defining factor. Its just an ingredient in the mix of successful sides, an ingredient that needs to be there BEFORE success comes for the success to actually be achieved.

So you’ve never seen people talk about/look back at successful teams or individuals and mention it? Fair enough. I’m tired of this subject to be honest, we each have our own definitions of it. It’s more important we all recognise where we are and where we are building towards and we are all in the same page with that. This debate isn’t even important....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't think that winning an FA Cup only having played two decent sides would meet your definition of winning mentality.

Of course it will. Its the corners thing all over again. P55 decides what does and doesnt not count, no matter how inconsistent.

He decided our performances against Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool/Juve dont count, but if we do well against Chelsea and Man U - THOSE games will.

And, of course, any counter argument will result in these goal posts being moved.

Remember when he completely discounted the opta definitions of scoring from set plays because it refuted his point, he simply redefined set play goals to avoid the facts and blindly push on his point...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So you’ve never seen people talk about/look back at successful teams or individuals and mention it? Fair enough. I’m tired of this subject to be honest, we each have our own definitions of it. It’s more important we all recognise where we are and where we are building towards and we are all in the same page with that. This debate isn’t even important....

Ive seen mention of it, after the fact, but Ive never seen it discussed exclusively as if it were a single measurable thing. Rather as a descriptor of character of a side, and only ever incidentally.

Couldnt agree more, its really quite meaningless in the scheme of things - and recognising where we are and how far we have come is the most important thing.

 

[Pirate55]

Of course it will. Its the corners thing all over again. P55 decides what does and doesnt not count, no matter how inconsistent.

He decided our performances against Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool/Juve dont count, but if we do well against Chelsea and Man U - THOSE games will.

And, of course, any counter argument will result in these goal posts being moved.

Remember when he completely discounted the opta definitions of scoring from set plays because it refuted his point, he simply redefined set play goals to avoid the facts and blindly push on his point...

A total misrepresentation of my views. But if it makes you happy, crack on.

 

[harr1984]

Believe it or not, history will judge whether in fact we have a winning mentality now - not you. Will you still continue to argue this case then? Oh yes, I can see it now, "we had a winning mentality only we didn't actually win anything". Typical liberal attitude to a concept of ultimate success ( which you freely admitted you had in an earlier post).

Whether Poch has this degree of ruthlessness to achieve the final push is as yet untested. He has not (yet) won anything in his managerial career. For example, his comments on substitutions where he says he doesn't like making substitutions as he is concerned about the feelings of players being taken off, is a cause of worry for me. Ditto his non use of the dark arts. Put simply - " Is Poch too nice to be a winner?".

That subs comment concerns me greatly, I hope he’s not too stubborn to change his opinion on that. If a player can’t recognise he’s being taken off for tactical reasons of some sort for the benefit of the team and not get upset about it,then he really hasn’t got the mentality to play for us....

 

[RunTMC]

Of course it will. Its the corners thing all over again. P55 decides what does and doesnt not count, no matter how inconsistent.

He decided our performances against Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool/Juve dont count, but if we do well against Chelsea and Man U - THOSE games will.

And, of course, any counter argument will result in these goal posts being moved.

Remember when he completely discounted the opta definitions of scoring from set plays because it refuted his point, he simply redefined set play goals to avoid the facts and blindly push on his point...

I remember coming into that run (incl the FA cup games) pretty much everyone was saying this was a key and defining moment of our season, a true test, the fate of our season was at stake etc

We came through that with flying colours. I'm pretty sure if we had performed poorly and lost, it would have been used as evidence that we don't have a winning mentality.

 

[thfcsteff]

That subs comment concerns me greatly, I hope he’s not too stubborn to change his opinion on that. If a player can’t recognise he’s being taken off for tactical reasons of some sort for the benefit of the team and not get upset about it,then he really hasn’t got the mentality to play for us....

It was one comment. I think to ascribe a philosophy to one quote robbed of context is unfair. He has no problem whatsoever upsetting players, again the proof is there and will be there again this summer - will probably upset some of our supporters too, but there we go. This brings me back to “trust the manager”...too liberal a view for some of life’s “winners” around here I know, but something I find myself adhering to.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Robspur12]

Believe it or not, history will judge whether in fact we have a winning mentality now - not you. Will you still continue to argue this case then? Oh yes, I can see it now, "we had a winning mentality only we didn't actually win anything". Typical liberal attitude to a concept of ultimate success ( which you freely admitted you had in an earlier post).

Whether Poch has this degree of ruthlessness to achieve the final push is as yet untested. He has not (yet) won anything in his managerial career. For example, his comments on substitutions where he says he doesn't like making substitutions as he is concerned about the feelings of players being taken off, is a cause of worry for me. Ditto his non use of the dark arts. Put simply - " Is Poch too nice to be a winner?".

I see where you are coming from mate but where I disagree is that the winning of a trophy any trophy demonstrates a winning mentality. As I said in an earlier post, no one, looking back in a few years, will credit this Arsenal side which has won three FA cups as a team with a winning mentality any more than Wigan or Birmingham City. Winning the big trophies such as the League and Champions League however are the stand out trophies that make teams go down in history as memorable achievements.

That is essentially what Poch was saying. So even if we win the FA cup this year it will only be memorable to us fans let's not pretend otherwise. History will judge us the same as the other cup winning Spurs teams -with affection but not as a great team.

 

[thfcsteff]

Believe it or not, history will judge whether in fact we have a winning mentality now - not you. Will you still continue to argue this case then? Oh yes, I can see it now, "we had a winning mentality only we didn't actually win anything". Typical liberal attitude to a concept of ultimate success ( which you freely admitted you had in an earlier post).

Whether Poch has this degree of ruthlessness to achieve the final push is as yet untested. He has not (yet) won anything in his managerial career. For example, his comments on substitutions where he says he doesn't like making substitutions as he is concerned about the feelings of players being taken off, is a cause of worry for me. Ditto his non use of the dark arts. Put simply - " Is Poch too nice to be a winner?".

Your clock appears to have gone wonky.
"History WILL judge whether in fact we have a winning mentality NOW..."
What???
Is history judging NOW or "will it" in "future"?
Is history judging your microscopic perception of a "winning mentality"? Why only yours?
"Will" I still continue to argue we "had" a "winning mentality"? When? How far in the future are we looking back at?


p.s. ...the true "winning mentality" is not about winning "specific big games" it is about not losing any GAME and being horrified when a loss occurs. A club with a true winning mentality looks at each game with equal importance and requires victory in each.

I am prepared to say right now that this side will win trophies in the next two seasons, and establish a winning culture that will continue far beyond Poch's time with us.

 

[harr1984]

It was one comment. I think to ascribe a philosophy to one quote robbed of context is unfair. He has no problem whatsoever upsetting players, again the proof is there and will be there again this summer - will probably upset some of our supporters too, but there we go. This brings me back to “trust the manager”...too liberal a view for some of life’s “winners” around here I know, but something I find myself adhering to.


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Steff I don’t think it’s out of context, you only have to look at the evidence - he consistently doesn’t make substitutions until late on. I do trust the guy, but he’s made plenty of mistakes (as he should) and IMO his lack of willingness to change things up in certain games until too late is one of them....

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff I don’t think it’s out of context, you only have to look at the evidence - he consistently doesn’t make substitutions until late on. I do trust the guy, but he’s made plenty of mistakes (as he should) and IMO his lack of willingness to change things up in certain games until too late is one of them....

OK mate. He has certainly made mistakes, but I think he has mostly got subs right myself. We agree to disagree?


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