Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Robspur12]

AVB was never as bad as people like to think he was. Poch's results this season haven't been as good as people like to imagine they are. AVB got stuffed by the big teams in between routinely grinding out points against the lesser sides (and that too only in 2013/2014: we whalloped United, City and Arsenal in 12/13). Poch is now suffering a squall where the smaller sides are drawing our sting and leaving us laboured and without ideas.

The difference is perhaps that AVB's league was more competitive at the top, whereas this league is just flat-out competitive all around. Still, it's never a good idea to blame the opposition for our own failings.

I think you are overstating AVB. We didn't "wallop" Arsenal or Utd certainly not like we beat city and Chelsea and dominated Arsenal at home and away. We beat them by a single goal and in both games it ended up being close with us hanging on in the end. As I said before AVB had the advantage of being able to play one of the best players in the world who could overcome any shortcomings in attack that may have been there. Poch , on the other hand has built a team from scratch. A team of young players who Will be inconsistent whereas AVB had the luxury of bringing in what we thought at. the time were established players.The Poch way is more sustainable imo, we just have to be. patient.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think you are overstating AVB. We didn't "wallop" Arsenal or Utd certainly not like we beat city and Chel53a and dominated Arsenal at home and away. We beat them by a single goal and in both games it ended up being close with us hanging on in the end. As I said before AVB had the advantage of being able to play one of the best players in the world who could overcome any shortcomings in attack that may have been there. Poch , on the other hand has built a team from scratch. A team of young players who Will be inconsistent whereas AVB had the luxury of bringing in what we thought at. the time were established players.

Not in his first season, at least. He brought in Verts, Dempsey, Dembele and Lloris, but he barely played Lloris until December. The other three were good players, but really, it was AVB who unlocked the potential of one of the players already at our club and used him to propel us onward, something Poch has tried to do less spectacularly (i.e, raising Bale from good to bloody phenomenal) but with a wider spread of players (players going from average to good/ very good under him). There's a reason that Bale just chuckles and refuses to answer when asked why his daughter has the initials A.V.B, after all. His second season..well, let's not go there, but suffice it to say that the 'established' players we brought in turned out to be ones he really didn't want.

My point was that AVB also did good work, doing a few of the things Poch is now doing and achieving better results than what we all remember him to have achieved (with dominant performances, if not 'whallopings', against United home and away, Arsenal at home and City at home). We shouldn't underestimate him in our rush to acclaim our current manager for achieving similar results, although @thfcsteff often classes Poch in a different category altogether when it comes to off-the-field work.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I see that some are still holding a candle for AVB. They must be mad, bad or sad. I for one am quite happy to make the pronouncement now that Poch is a better manager than AVB. AVB was the most boring manager we have ever had - He played mind numbing football and used a reckless high line to which we were entirely unsuited. This resulted in many fans considering whether the still wanted to watch his brand of football and also resulted in some humiliating defeats. He wasted some supreme talents under his watch ( Adebayor, VDV to name but two) and only wanted to buy extremely expensive footballers and pay them loads of dosh.

I have no hesitation in saying I prefer the Poch brand of football - the high energy, forward looking, attractive style with young and many home grown players. It's a no brainier for me.

Let's hope we can make a clearer distinction between the two in May. If we look and play much better but crash and finish 7th/8th it will all be a moot point anyhow.
So far, even today, i am loving how we are playing under Poch and how he is managing the team.
But, the jury is still out on whether we crash and burn from February onwards. If we don't and go into the final two weeks still in with a shout of a top 4 finish, then i will be in a position to say Poch is better.
But atm? Jury still out overall (though Poch is 'winning' on many off-field fronts atm..)

 

[Pirate55]

Let's hope we can make a clearer distinction between the two in May. If we look and play much better but crash and finish 7th/8th it will all be a moot point anyhow.
So far, even today, i am loving how we are playing under Poch and how he is managing the team.
But, the jury is still out on whether we crash and burn from February onwards. If we don't and go into the final two weeks still in with a shout of a top 4 finish, then i will be in a position to say Poch is better.
But atm? Jury still out overall (though Poch is 'winning' on many off-field fronts atm..)

Imagine this team with Bale in it. That way we finish really strongly after Feb .... and win the title to boot!!

 

[DubaiSpur]

I see that some are still holding a candle for AVB. They must be mad, bad or sad. I for one am quite happy to make the pronouncement now that Poch is a better manager than AVB. AVB was the most boring manager we have ever had - He played mind numbing football and used a reckless high line to which we were entirely unsuited. This resulted in many fans considering whether the still wanted to watch his brand of football and also resulted in some humiliating defeats. He wasted some supreme talents under his watch ( Adebayor, VDV to name but two) and only wanted to buy extremely expensive footballers and pay them loads of dosh.

I have no hesitation in saying I prefer the Poch brand of football - the high energy, forward looking, attractive style with young and many home grown players. It's a no brainier for me.

I have intense man-love for VDV, so I won't argue with you there, but Poch also wasted the 'supreme talent' of Adebayor, in a far more ostracising and ruthless fashion. If AVB gets a minus for that, Poch is even worse.

As for the most 'boring' manager we have ever had playing a 'reckless' high line for which we were entirely unsuited, we still play a high line (for which we are now better suited, although I wouldn't have made that pronouncement last season) and watching controlled aggression in the best games under AVB (3-2 against United, West Ham, 2-1 against Arsenal, 3-1 against City) ranks among the finest experiences I've had as a Spurs fan, very much up there with our CL run, Harry's era and the CC win.

 

[milo]

I have intense man-love for VDV, so I won't argue with you there, but Poch also wasted the 'supreme talent' of Adebayor, in a far more ostracising and ruthless fashion. If AVB gets a minus for that, Poch is even worse.

As for the most 'boring' manager we have ever had playing a 'reckless' high line for which we were entirely unsuited, we still play a high line (for which we are now better suited, although I wouldn't have made that pronouncement last season) and watching controlled aggression in the best games under AVB (3-2 against United, West Ham, 2-1 against Arsenal, 3-1 against City) ranks among the finest experiences I've had as a Spurs fan, very much up there with our CL run, Harry's era and the CC win.

Utter nonsense. The way that Poch has assessed the players in the squad he inherited and moved on the ones that he felt did not fit, in without barely a squeak from any of them, is some of the best man management I have seen in a long time. I doubt that there is a manager alive who could get Adebayor to play a high pressing game, so what was he meant to do?

 

[Robspur12]

Not in his first season, at least. He brought in Verts, Dempsey, Dembele and Lloris, but he barely played Lloris until December. The other three were good players, but really, it was AVB who unlocked the potential of one of the players already at our club and used him to propel us onward, something Poch has tried to do less spectacularly (i.e, raising Bale from good to bloody phenomenal) but with a wider spread of players (players going from average to good/ very good under him). There's a reason that Bale just chuckles and refuses to answer when asked why his daughter has the initials A.V.B, after all. His second season..well, let's not go there, but suffice it to say that the 'established' players we brought in turned out to be ones he really didn't want.

My point was that AVB also did good work, doing a few of the things Poch is now doing and achieving better results than what we all remember him to have achieved (with dominant performances, if not 'whallopings', against United home and away, Arsenal at home and City at home). We shouldn't underestimate him in our rush to acclaim our current manager for achieving similar results, although @thfcsteff often classes Poch in a different category altogether when it comes to off-the-field work.

Again I think you are giving AVB way too much credit for Bale, he had no more than a marginal effect on an already very good player, I very much doubt he coached Bale to be great. Here's the difference for me between Poch and AVB. To be successful AVB craved big signings or needed established very good players. Whereas Poch has a record of taking unfancied players and Coaching them to be better. I wanted Poch to be our manager when Tim left but I could not have dreamt that today we would have a team made up of Kane, Mason, Bentaleb, Onumah, Alli and I'm sure Pritchard if he had been fit. Even if Poch does not succeed he has developed a fantastic core of young players for him or the next manager. I believe what he has done so far has been remarkable because unlike the previous two managers we are having to work within tighter budget constraints. We back this guy with a striker in January and I am sure he will be successful.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Imagine this team with Bale in it. That way we finish really strongly after Feb .... and win the title to boot!!

Tell me about it

 

[DubaiSpur]

Utter nonsense. The way that Poch has assessed the players in the squad he inherited and moved on the ones that he felt did not fit, in without barely a squeak from any of them, is some of the best man management I have seen in a long time. I doubt that there is a manager alive who could get Adebayor to play a high pressing game, so what was he meant to do?

Nothing, really. But you can't blame AVB for 'wasting' Adebayor's 'supreme talent', when it's actually fairly clear that he played him regularly before growing disenchanted with him...and then absolve Poch of all blame for doing the same damn thing, but while playing Ade for an even smaller duration before making the same conclusion that AVB came to. Double standard right there, and one you shouldn't be defending with such ardour.

 

[Robspur12]

Utter nonsense. The way that Poch has assessed the players in the squad he inherited and moved on the ones that he felt did not fit, in without barely a squeak from any of them, is some of the best man management I have seen in a long time. I doubt that there is a manager alive who could get Adebayor to play a high pressing game, so what was he meant to do?

agree 100%, One thing that seemed clear under AVB, Tim and Poch in the first half of last season was that the squad needed some work. The decisive way Poch has gone about this has been, again, remarkable.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Again I think you are giving AVB way too much credit for Bale, he had no more than a marginal effect on an already very good player, I very much doubt he coached Bale to be great. Here's the difference for me between Poch and AVB. To be successful AVB craved big signings or needed established very good players. Whereas Poch has a record of taking unfancied players and Coaching them to be better. I wanted Poch to be our manager when Tim left but I could not have dreamt that today we would have a team made up of Kane, Mason, Bentaleb, Onumah, Alli and I'm sure Pritchard if he had been fit. Even if Poch does not succeed he has developed a fantastic core of young players for him or the next manager. I believe what he has done so far has been remarkable because unlike the previous two managers we are having to work within tighter budget constraints. We back this guy with a striker in January and I am sure he will be successful.

Well, let's agree to disagree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...le-exclusive-interview-Real-Madrid-Spurs.html

'‘I said at the beginning of that 2012/2013 season that I felt I could go up a level and was frustrated by being double-marked every game on the left-wing,’ Bale says. ‘André Villas-Boas had just joined and we had this big chat. We decided to give me that free role where I was able to wander and find space. That was it, then. As soon as we did it, I started playing better and scoring more goals, the team began winning more games and it had a snowball effect. My confidence was sky-high.’

'‘The confidence he showed in me was unbelievable,’ he says. ‘He instilled me with a belief that I can go on to the pitch and control a game. If we were struggling, I suddenly believed that I could go and take over. I’ll always be very grateful to him.’

Sounds, almost word for word, like what Poch does with a wider spread of players. I think we can both agree that AVB was a manager more focused on building a team by any means necessary (including transfers), and that he had a higher standard for entrants into the team than Poch has: i.e, AVB kept and refined the best player we had, while buying better ones and filling gaps with them as he waited for more of the present team to be moved on. In that respect, Poch does the same thing, but is more willing to give youth players time and space, without looking to the market to buy more developed players: ultimately, that's an approach that is longer-term and more difficult to accomplish, and in that regard is more a sign of skill than what AVB did.

But that doesn't make AVB a bad manager, or make Poch the anti-AVB. They're both very good, and AVB in particular was better than we give him credit for being. Plus, these managers had the same budget constraints to work under,i.e zero net spend: one saw resales as a way of working under those restrictions, the other saw youth as a way of working under those restrictions. The last manager we gave a relatively free hand to with respect to that constraint was Redknapp in January and summer 2009, alhough I hope we're doing the same with Poch now.

 

[Robspur12]

Well, let's agree to disagree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...le-exclusive-interview-Real-Madrid-Spurs.html

'‘I said at the beginning of that 2012/2013 season that I felt I could go up a level and was frustrated by being double-marked every game on the left-wing,’ Bale says. ‘André Villas-Boas had just joined and we had this big chat. We decided to give me that free role where I was able to wander and find space. That was it, then. As soon as we did it, I started playing better and scoring more goals, the team began winning more games and it had a snowball effect. My confidence was sky-high.’

'‘The confidence he showed in me was unbelievable,’ he says. ‘He instilled me with a belief that I can go on to the pitch and control a game. If we were struggling, I suddenly believed that I could go and take over. I’ll always be very grateful to him.’

Sounds, almost word for word, like what Poch does with a wider spread of players. I think we can both agree that AVB was a manager more focused on building a team by any means necessary (including transfers), and that he had a higher standard for entrants into the team than Poch has: i.e, AVB kept and refined the best player we had, while buying better ones and filling gaps with them as he waited for more of the present team to be moved on. In that respect, Poch does the same thing, but is more willing to give youth players time and space, without looking to the market to buy more developed players: ultimately, that's an approach that is longer-term and more difficult to accomplish, and in that regard is more a sign of skill than what AVB did.

But that doesn't make AVB a bad manager, or make Poch the anti-AVB. They're both very good, and AVB in particular was better than we give him credit for being. Plus, these managers had the same budget constraints to work under,i.e zero net spend: one saw resales as a way of working under those restrictions, the other saw youth as a way of working under those restrictions. The last manager we gave a relatively free hand to with respect to that constraint was Redknapp in January and summer 2009, alhough I hope we're doing the same with Poch now.

If I recall correctly Redknapp had toyed with the idea of bringing bale into a central role? So this was not an original idea from AVB. In any case I don't think bringing an already brilliant player into a central role would count as coaching genius. In the end you still had a world class player in the first place. Whereas bringing into the team perennial loanees or players who had nothing more than a peripheral involvement in the team or entirely new players and coaching them to play the pressing system that surely ranks as a greater achievement. AVB may have had the same zero net spend constraints but he also had the luxury of working with a world class player for one of his seasons with 30 million from the sale of another, and then 100 million in his second season. Resources which Poch can only dream of.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's quite fine to be happy and delight in Poch and his work so far whilst ALSO liking some of what AVB did with us until it fell apart (wasn't it two years ago about now that he left??)
Both coaches have their strengths and weaknesses in different areas

 

[milo]

Nothing, really. But you can't blame AVB for 'wasting' Adebayor's 'supreme talent', when it's actually fairly clear that he played him regularly before growing disenchanted with him...and then absolve Poch of all blame for doing the same damn thing, but while playing Ade for an even smaller duration before making the same conclusion that AVB came to. Double standard right there, and one you shouldn't be defending with such ardour.

I don't blame AVB for wasting Adebayor's talent. I think that it is pretty clear that Adebayor is a talented but inconsistent footballer who is difficult to manage. I think that AVB handled him badly but his judgement was right. Poch came to the same conclusion but handled the situation far better.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I don't blame AVB for wasting Adebayor's talent. I think that it is pretty clear that Adebayor is a talented but inconsistent footballer who is difficult to manage. I think that AVB handled him badly but his judgement was right. Poch came to the same conclusion but handled the situation far better.

You don't blame him, I know. @Pirate55, however, does. And I was pointing out to him that judging AVB on that standard was ludicrously unfair given that, if the same was applied to Poch, he'd come out of it looking even worse than AVB. That's when you jumped in shouting about 'utter nonsense' and all that.

'Wasting' Adebayor's 'supreme talent' is not an offense either AVB or Poch can ever be accused of.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I have intense man-love for VDV, so I won't argue with you there, but Poch also wasted the 'supreme talent' of Adebayor, in a far more ostracising and ruthless fashion. If AVB gets a minus for that, Poch is even worse.

As for the most 'boring' manager we have ever had playing a 'reckless' high line for which we were entirely unsuited, we still play a high line (for which we are now better suited, although I wouldn't have made that pronouncement last season) and watching controlled aggression in the best games under AVB (3-2 against United, West Ham, 2-1 against Arsenal, 3-1 against City) ranks among the finest experiences I've had as a Spurs fan, very much up there with our CL run, Harry's era and the CC win.

The 3-2 against West Ham, I remember as being a game that we didn't look like winning at all with Bale then rescuing us in the last minute with a Worldly?

Currently I have Pochettino above AVB and Sherwood and behind Redknapp. IMO our Redknapp team was the best to watch and the AVB team was by some distance the worst to watch. Pochettino's team is not too far away from Redknapp's in terms of watchability.

 

[glorygloryeze]

The 3-2 against West Ham, I remember as being a game that we didn't look like winning at all with Bale then rescuing us in the last minute with a Worldly?

If you mean the game at Upton Park, then we should have been wining by the time Bale intervened (again; he scored the first goal too) in the last minute.
We were all over West Ham and we missed a load of sitters (Adebayor missed at least 2 iirc)

 

[Finney Is Back]

If you mean the game at Upton Park, then we should have been wining by the time Bale intervened (again; he scored the first goal too) in the last minute.
We were all over West Ham and we missed a load of sitters (Adebayor missed at least 2 iirc)

Funny, I don't remember that at all.... I thought it was a competitive game. I felt we were more dominant against Arsenal at The Emirates this season than we were in that game at West Ham.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Funny, I don't remember that at all.... I thought it was a competitive game. I felt we were more dominant against Arsenal at The Emirates this season than we were in that game at West Ham.

We were loose at the back v West Ham i felt; The first goal we gave away was cheap (silly foul for a pen) and we went to sleep for their second (Caulker or Verts going missing or something) but in the last 30 mins we pummelled them senseless. In fact if Ade had his shooting boots on before their second goal we may have been more comfortable and not needed to pummel them.

 

[Yermiyahu]

You don't blame him, I know. @Pirate55, however, does. And I was pointing out to him that judging AVB on that standard was ludicrously unfair given that, if the same was applied to Poch, he'd come out of it looking even worse than AVB. That's when you jumped in shouting about 'utter nonsense' and all that.

'Wasting' Adebayor's 'supreme talent' is not an offense either AVB or Poch can ever be accused of.

I think that Mr. Adebayor was quite capable of wasting his supreme talent all by himself without any assistance from AVB or Poch.