Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[veron23]

Wow. And the award for missing the point and taking things out of context goes to...

Firstly the Pulis and Arsenal examples are different paragraphs. I didn't say that Pulis plays the defensive triangles.
The Pulis examples was a response to your comment that we need to spend more money to improve defensively. Pulis has proved more than once that with no more money spent his teams improve on defending due to coaching.

The arsenal example was to show the importance of a defensive triangle to ensure the midfield 2 don't get out numbered. Again this was coaching/tactics with the same personell and not down to spending more money.

Jeez

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Again, I think it is pretty clear from earlier in the season that Poch looks for the high-press and an immediate 'cover' from those two 'wide' players on transitions. The reason our two deeper midfielders have been getting increasingly isolated (to my eye) is that we are simply not transitioning into this system/coverage as high up the pitch as we were earlier in the season. At one point around December, I could not believe how efficient we were in hunting the ball down in PACKS in the opposition third. It was superb. Now, however, the likes of Chadli and Eriksen are knackered, Andros drifts and we are left drifting all over the place, with that overload you speak of happening. I genuinely think Poch needs squad players he trusts more. Dembele and Paulinho should, in theory, work, but they are not his cup of tea for whatever reason. I think in Poch we have the right guy personally...let's hope he gets the right players ;-)

Exactly the issue
Mason gets slated for not defending well enough but this system is all about defending from the front. Lately we have had no more than two of the front 4 working hard enough and well enough hence the struggles. When they work as a unit were a far better more dynamic side. The problem comes with the lack of cover for their psoitions as no one has really pushed them with fresh legs and Poch simply doesn't want Dembele in

 

[Armchair Expert]

You're right...

I really should have pointed out how some of those examples really make little sense in addition to the money/coaching issues. Like Wenger all of a sudden discovering the defensive triangle when one deep holding midfielder with two more box to box players has been a fixture under Wenger for years and years. Or how Pulis all of a sudden brought the defensive triangle to WBA, as if no one else had tried a defensive midfielder at WBA before. And when Pulis actually had sustained success at Stoke often playing a 4-4-2.

But with a CL semi-final to watch, who has the time...?

Yep, life is way, way too short

 

[Pirate55]

Again, I think it is pretty clear from earlier in the season that Poch looks for the high-press and an immediate 'cover' from those two 'wide' players on transitions. The reason our two deeper midfielders have been getting increasingly isolated (to my eye) is that we are simply not transitioning into this system/coverage as high up the pitch as we were earlier in the season. At one point around December, I could not believe how efficient we were in hunting the ball down in PACKS in the opposition third. It was superb. Now, however, the likes of Chadli and Eriksen are knackered, Andros drifts and we are left drifting all over the place, with that overload you speak of happening. I genuinely think Poch needs squad players he trusts more. Dembele and Paulinho should, in theory, work, but they are not his cup of tea for whatever reason. I think in Poch we have the right guy personally...let's hope he gets the right players ;-)

I can only hope you are right. Certainly the efficient high press we saw against Arsenal and Chelsea disappeared at the end of the season. Kane, Mason and Eriksen looked increasingly shattered and some of the others don't seem suited to the high tempo, high pressing game. I am willing to give Poch some time to get this right but want to see a significant improvement next year.

It seems to me that flair players just don't fit into the AM role and play the way that Poch wants. Its stifles them. To expect a Best, a Barnes, a Waddle, or a Ginola to track back is just putting them in a straightjacket. It is evident that Lamela, Townsend, Lennon and Chadli have all had the attacking flair sucked out of them in this formation.

I just hope we bring in better players rather than constantly levelling downwards. Our buys should be key players to strengthen the team and help our youngsters progress. We cannot keep expecting our youngsters to form the backbone of the team and be supported by less than stellar support.

 

[veron23]

I can only hope you are right. Certainly the efficient high press we saw against Arsenal and Chelsea disappeared at the end of the season. Kane, Mason and Eriksen looked increasingly shattered and some of the others don't seem suited to the high tempo, high pressing game. I am willing to give Poch some time to get this right but want to see a significant improvement next year.

It seems to me that flair players just don't fit into the AM role and play the way that Poch wants. Its stifles them. To expect a Best, a Barnes, a Waddle, or a Ginola to track back is just putting them in a straightjacket. It is evident that Lamela, Townsend, Lennon and Chadli have all had the attacking flair sucked out of them in this formation.

I just hope we bring in better players rather than constantly levelling downwards. Our buys should be key players to strengthen the team and help our youngsters progress. We cannot keep expecting our youngsters to form the backbone of the team and be supported by less than stellar support.

Didn't Neymar, Suarez and Messi press successfully tonight? 3 flair players.
Doesn't Hazard press well? Another flair player

They also pressed/press successfully in a 433 (4123 to be exact) formation which proves you can have an extra man in midfield and still not sacrifice a high press game. Its all about knowing where to be and when.
Teams that press well push forward with 2 high full backs but leave a number 6 in front of the back four. But when they are attacked the full backs drop back along with the wide forwards in front plus 2 midfielders to make a 4141 shape. All good teams to do this, its a myth/excuse to say it requires "2 lungs and super human fitness" I honestly think whoever is waiting for Poch's system to kick in once we make better signings will be waiting for nothing.

My problem with Pochs interpretation of a 4231 is that its exactly 4231/rigid to the core regardless of the transition. We move forwards and backwards in the same shape seemingly unaware of the gaps. No tucking in/tracking back/doubling up etc. This is why I don't think signing better players will have THAT much difference next season unless Poch addresses how to protect us when the ball is in our half.

 

[The egyptian]

You can not play high pressing game with out high line defence. After high line defence made alot of mistakes against liverpool and UTD, we stoped playing with it and our defence played close to our box and this did not and will not work with high pressing game.

 

[metalgear]

Again, I think it is pretty clear from earlier in the season that Poch looks for the high-press and an immediate 'cover' from those two 'wide' players on transitions. The reason our two deeper midfielders have been getting increasingly isolated (to my eye) is that we are simply not transitioning into this system/coverage as high up the pitch as we were earlier in the season. At one point around December, I could not believe how efficient we were in hunting the ball down in PACKS in the opposition third. It was superb. Now, however, the likes of Chadli and Eriksen are knackered, Andros drifts and we are left drifting all over the place, with that overload you speak of happening. I genuinely think Poch needs squad players he trusts more. Dembele and Paulinho should, in theory, work, but they are not his cup of tea for whatever reason. I think in Poch we have the right guy personally...let's hope he gets the right players ;-)

i don't buy the knackered theory- look at arsenal and chelsea - they press as hard (but differently). and if we accept that we will be knackered before the end of every season how are we to win anything?

and poch does have a lot of players to use, only thing is that he prefers to keep with the same team and perhaps system of play. meaning to say that it is his choice and accepts the consequence of knackered players, though we are challenging for places.

all things considered - i can only surmise that poch is still in the early stages of transition, and prioritizes bedding down the footballing philosophy above all else.

along those lines, then i accept that we are knackered because we don't fully utitilise the full squad, and that we are still sub-optimal in the system that poch advocates. i.e. lots of square pegs in round holes, not changing the holes anymore.

 

[braineclipse]

Didn't Neymar, Suarez and Messi press successfully tonight? 3 flair players.
Doesn't Hazard press well? Another flair player

They also pressed/press successfully in a 433 (4123 to be exact) formation which proves you can have an extra man in midfield and still not sacrifice a high press game. Its all about knowing where to be and when.
Teams that press well push forward with 2 high full backs but leave a number 6 in front of the back four. But when they are attacked the full backs drop back along with the wide forwards in front plus 2 midfielders to make a 4141 shape. All good teams to do this, its a myth/excuse to say it requires "2 lungs and super human fitness" I honestly think whoever is waiting for Poch's system to kick in once we make better signings will be waiting for nothing.

My problem with Pochs interpretation of a 4231 is that its exactly 4231/rigid to the core regardless of the transition. We move forwards and backwards in the same shape seemingly unaware of the gaps. No tucking in/tracking back/doubling up etc. This is why I don't think signing better players will have THAT much difference next season unless Poch addresses how to protect us when the ball is in our half.

But aren't you being at least as rigid in your interpretation of what has to be done?

In the second half last night Bayern did really well for the first 30-35 minutes, playing quite clearly with a 4-2-X (or 4-4-X) type formation with Alonso and Lahm ahead of the back 4. They weren't isolated, of course Thiago and Schweinsteiger helped out for sure and Muller dropped down a bit at times. But they didn't switch to a 4-1-2-X type formation when defending. There's more than one way to skin a cat and more than the "leave a number 6 in front of the back four" ways of defending.

The point about money, Hazard and Chelsea is that with the kind of money the top teams have they can afford to buy top flair players that are also very hard working. And they're in a much stronger position to convince top flair players that aren't working hard enough to up their game. Mourinho could get rid of Mata because he wasn't a good fit, confident that he could buy the type of players that fit better with his strategy. Mourinho could hang Hazard out to dry in the press after their CL elimination confident that although Hazard might be upset it's not like he would also be tapped up by someone offering to double his wages and improve his chances of winning titles elsewhere to further make him want to leave.

Can Pochettino do the same without the financial power Chelsea have? Not that easy I would say.

 

[metalgear]

good long interview, poch looks quite relaxed but doesn't give too much away

 

[Raziel]

Interesting ... agree he looks very relaxed ...

- So he has control/major input over transfers
- He knows who he wants to come/go (analysis done)
- Place open for Gareth .. love it ..well done Poch

 

[Roy1983]

Yes cos we're first on Bales list lol good old Tottenham!

Major Poch cynic here as some may know. First season summed up in one word id say acceptable. Not spectacular not disastrous. Hoping he moves 4/5 on in the summer and is backed by Levy.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes cos we're first on Bales list lol good old Tottenham!

Major Poch cynic here as some may know. First season summed up in one word id say acceptable. Not spectacular not disastrous. Hoping he moves 4/5 on in the summer and is backed by Levy.

In the interview posted above Pochettino literally says it was a joke a minute after saying it.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

I'm really worried about Poch... I have been all season and things aren't getting better. His inability to learn. To change games. To improve our attack/defence. His persistence with some of our worst players. I haven't felt so out of touch with a managers decisions in a long long time.

And this season, one of our most stable in a long time with regards to our playing staff, he's had all season, yet some of the worst defensive, loss, points stats in a long long time.

I want to give him time, I hope it is because it isn't his team, but I just don't see anything in the way we play that gives me hope.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

I've asked all season, but no ones ever been able to tell me. Can someone tell me what exactly is good about Poch? I don't see anything in his play that gets me excited and haven't seen us this bad in a long time. Last season was better than this! I genuinely want to know what people see because I haven't seen any development all season.

 

[Raziel]

In the interview posted above Pochettino literally says it was a joke a minute after saying it.

I think it was

I'm really worried about Poch... I have been all season and things aren't getting better. His inability to learn. To change games. To improve our attack/defence. His persistence with some of our worst players. I haven't felt so out of touch with a managers decisions in a long long time.

And this season, one of our most stable in a long time with regards to our playing staff, he's had all season, yet some of the worst defensive, loss, points stats in a long long time.

I want to give him time, I hope it is because it isn't his team, but I just don't see anything in the way we play that gives me hope.

Mate you hate Poch .. don't try to tone it down now ...

Unfortunately I agree with you re being very worried about him now, the defensive side of the team is unacceptable, a 3-0 to stoke is unacceptable, 5 points in last 6 games I believe when we should be turning it on for CL spot?

Levy has to think hard here, Poch if he loses the remaining games may be out ..

 

[Jordinho]

We should get that Koeman guy. More than 70 % possession for Southampton today, just unlucky to lose 0-2 and sit below us in the table.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm really worried about Poch... I have been all season and things aren't getting better. His inability to learn. To change games. To improve our attack/defence. His persistence with some of our worst players. I haven't felt so out of touch with a managers decisions in a long long time.

And this season, one of our most stable in a long time with regards to our playing staff, he's had all season, yet some of the worst defensive, loss, points stats in a long long time.

I want to give him time, I hope it is because it isn't his team, but I just don't see anything in the way we play that gives me hope.

hey Grimsby, did you know the forum has a quote button? it'll save you typing it out each week if you just go back to your first post after the previous game

;-)

 

[Raziel]

We should get that Koeman guy. More than 70 % possession for Southampton today, just unlucky to lose 0-2 and sit below us in the table.

Koeman is the same brick mate .. inexperienced manager who had a good run and his team has fallen apart when it counts ..

 

[GrimsbyYid]

I think it was


Mate you hate Poch .. don't try to tone it down now ...

Unfortunately I agree with you re being very worried about him now, the defensive side of the team is unacceptable, a 3-0 to stoke is unacceptable, 5 points in last 6 games I believe when we should be turning it on for CL spot?

Levy has to think hard here, Poch if he loses the remaining games may be out ..

I don't hate him. I like him very much. I even get a little excitement when I hear about him having control of transfers etc. I'd be delighted if it really was just a bad squad who can't adapt properly to his ways, and the reason his subs and tactical switches are so painfully limited is because he really really doesn't trust the other players (though I would say he can't really trust some of those he's picking either)

But I've just seen a manager who has made consistently atrocious decisions all season ever since making Kaboul captain and Ade vice captain and then playing them both for 11 games when they were awful. And things haven't improved.

I've seen us all season be so defensively weak, in shape, in awareness, on the counter, no real quality anywhere. Barely create anything in attack ALL season.

I've seen lloris save us.

I've seen Eriksen save us with late goals.

Kane has saved us.

He's played what I believe the weakest central midfield partnership in a crazy crazy crazy amount of time. 10 years? More? And stick with it, when w have far better on the bench.

Predictable subs at predictable times that don't change anything.

What haven't seen, is any development whatsoever from the beginning of the season until today.

And it terrifies the fudge out of me for next season!

 

[Baleforce]

I said it under AVB, I probably said it under sherwood (and stuck the boot into him as well most likely), and I'm saying it now, the problem isn't the manager, the problem is we have a squad full of limited players of questionable character

or to put it another way, they are all brick