Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[glorygloryeze]

Would you mind re-stating the points you think are so worthy of reply? If at all possible without the string of logical fallacies seemingly surrounding whatever good point it is you think he's making...

Veron23 points that are worthy of discussion imo:

- Veron23 quote: "The main thing is the midfield 2. I know alot of people feel Mason isn't good enough but to me its nothing to do with the personnel. Mason is more than a capable player but needs to play in a 3 not a 2. ANY midfielder (unless maybe the exceptional) in modern football can't apply himself 100% in a 2 man midfield as 9/10 they are playing against a 3 and are literally out of position all day long. Man Utd game is a prime example, Mason didn't know when to press or stay. If he stayed the player on the ball would attack at will, if he pressed he'd leave a gap for the midfield runner. "
- Eriksen being better deployed on left due to getting more space
- Lamela being better suited to play in the middle
- 4-2-3-1 as frail as 4-4-2 and 3-4-3 when up against 3 men midfields
- Our defensive frailties and whether they really are dependant on us having 'his players' in the cm area (why are we conceding even more goals than when Sherwood was managing us? Poch Soton teams weren't as porous as us)? Why are the player he plays not seemingly being coached to get into better shape when we don't have the ball? Does it really need a £20M+ midfielder to sort this issue out?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Then we need to find a system where by us having a tiny pitch is
A huge advantage, as we will be playing half our games there..... It's pretty important.

Not worth it now when we've only 2 seasons (38 games) left on it, before we move to a nice big one?

 

[braineclipse]

Veron23 points that are worthy of discussion imo:

1. - Veron23 quote: "The main thing is the midfield 2. I know alot of people feel Mason isn't good enough but to me its nothing to do with the personnel. Mason is more than a capable player but needs to play in a 3 not a 2. ANY midfielder (unless maybe the exceptional) in modern football can't apply himself 100% in a 2 man midfield as 9/10 they are playing against a 3 and are literally out of position all day long. Man Utd game is a prime example, Mason didn't know when to press or stay. If he stayed the player on the ball would attack at will, if he pressed he'd leave a gap for the midfield runner. "
2. - Eriksen being better deployed on left due to getting more space
3. - Lamela being better suited to play in the middle
4. - 4-2-3-1 as frail as 4-4-2 and 3-4-3 when up against 3 men midfields
5. - Our defensive frailties and whether they really are dependant on us having 'his players' in the cm area (why are we conceding even more goals than when Sherwood was managing us? Poch Soton teams weren't as porous as us)? Why are the player he plays not seemingly being coached to get into better shape when we don't have the ball? Does it really need a £20M+ midfielder to sort this issue out?

Ok. So in order, for me at least....

1. I just disagree. We don't play with a "2 man midfield". There have been plenty of instances where we could have done better. But for me this is not a problem with our formation. Been said a lot recently, but I really think people overestimate the importance of the numbers in a formation and underestimate the system as a whole and style of play.

2 & 3. Yeah. Just not buying it. This to me is like saying that Bale will become a world class left back, or that Harry Kane can't play as a #9. Both Eriksen and Lamela are talented players capable of playing multiple positions and roles. Funnily enough you get people complaining about Poch playing Eriksen in the centre when he's there and people complaining about him being played on the left when he's there. At this stage in their careers to try to pigeonhole what their best position is whilst simultaneously complaining about others (namely Pochettino) not being flexible enough is the kind of thing that makes an argument look rather silly to me.

4. Yeah. No. 3-4-3? Really? 4-2-3-1 is a very frequently used formation these days. As frail as 3-4-3 that is barely used over an extended period of time by anyone bar a select few? Not seeing it, nor the argument by analogy used to defend it.

5. Our deep central midfield duo is currently 20 and 23 years old. They have 33 and 26 top flight league starts respectively. The player primarily playing ahead of them is 23 and with 57 Premier League starts he kinda represents the experience in the front 6 along with 25 year old Nacer Chadli who has 40 PL starts. Our backup options for the front 6 scarcely need more criticism aimed at them at this point.

Yes. I will go out on a limb here and say that in terms of consistency, positioning, off the ball movement patterns I would expect an improvement if very good players with more experience at this level were brought in. Or from just giving these players a bit more time under Pochettino. Or at the very least having players available at a similar level and experience who can provide cover and competition for places. But even as I write that I feel like I would be wasting my time arguing this against someone that has stated "Overall I can't stand 4231".

I'm not surprised that a team with Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Steven Davies was more solid than one with Bentaleb, Mason and Eriksen as they currently are.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Ok. So in order, for me at least....

1. I just disagree. We don't play with a "2 man midfield". There have been plenty of instances where we could have done better. But for me this is not a problem with our formation. Been said a lot recently, but I really think people overestimate the importance of the numbers in a formation and underestimate the system as a whole and style of play.

2 & 3. Yeah. Just not buying it. This to me is like saying that Bale will become a world class left back, or that Harry Kane can't play as a #9. Both Eriksen and Lamela are talented players capable of playing multiple positions and roles. Funnily enough you get people complaining about Poch playing Eriksen in the centre when he's there and people complaining about him being played on the left when he's there. At this stage in their careers to try to pigeonhole what their best position is whilst simultaneously complaining about others (namely Pochettino) not being flexible enough is the kind of thing that makes an argument look rather silly to me.

4. Yeah. No. 3-4-3? Really? 4-2-3-1 is a very frequently used formation these days. As frail as 3-4-3 that is barely used over an extended period of time by anyone bar a select few? Not seeing it, nor the argument by analogy used to defend it.

5. Our deep central midfield duo is currently 20 and 23 years old. They have 33 and 26 top flight league starts respectively. The player primarily playing ahead of them is 23 and with 57 Premier League starts he kinda represents the experience in the front 6 along with 25 year old Nacer Chadli who has 40 PL starts. Our backup options for the front 6 scarcely need more criticism aimed at them at this point.

Yes. I will go out on a limb here and say that in terms of consistency, positioning, off the ball movement patterns I would expect an improvement if very good players with more experience at this level were brought in. Or from just giving these players a bit more time under Pochettino. Or at the very least having players available at a similar level and experience who can provide cover and competition for places. But even as I write that I feel like I would be wasting my time arguing this against someone that has stated "Overall I can't stand 4231".

I'm not surprised that a team with Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Steven Davies was more solid than one with Bentaleb, Mason and Eriksen as they currently are.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Good discussion points imo

 

[NWND]

Ok. So in order, for me at least....

1. I just disagree. We don't play with a "2 man midfield". There have been plenty of instances where we could have done better. But for me this is not a problem with our formation. Been said a lot recently, but I really think people overestimate the importance of the numbers in a formation and underestimate the system as a whole and style of play.

2 & 3. Yeah. Just not buying it. This to me is like saying that Bale will become a world class left back, or that Harry Kane can't play as a #9. Both Eriksen and Lamela are talented players capable of playing multiple positions and roles. Funnily enough you get people complaining about Poch playing Eriksen in the centre when he's there and people complaining about him being played on the left when he's there. At this stage in their careers to try to pigeonhole what their best position is whilst simultaneously complaining about others (namely Pochettino) not being flexible enough is the kind of thing that makes an argument look rather silly to me.

4. Yeah. No. 3-4-3? Really? 4-2-3-1 is a very frequently used formation these days. As frail as 3-4-3 that is barely used over an extended period of time by anyone bar a select few? Not seeing it, nor the argument by analogy used to defend it.

5. Our deep central midfield duo is currently 20 and 23 years old. They have 33 and 26 top flight league starts respectively. The player primarily playing ahead of them is 23 and with 57 Premier League starts he kinda represents the experience in the front 6 along with 25 year old Nacer Chadli who has 40 PL starts. Our backup options for the front 6 scarcely need more criticism aimed at them at this point.

Yes. I will go out on a limb here and say that in terms of consistency, positioning, off the ball movement patterns I would expect an improvement if very good players with more experience at this level were brought in. Or from just giving these players a bit more time under Pochettino. Or at the very least having players available at a similar level and experience who can provide cover and competition for places. But even as I write that I feel like I would be wasting my time arguing this against someone that has stated "Overall I can't stand 4231".

I'm not surprised that a team with Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Steven Davies was more solid than one with Bentaleb, Mason and Eriksen as they currently are.

Ok. So in order, for me at least....

1. I just disagree. We don't play with a "2 man midfield". There have been plenty of instances where we could have done better. But for me this is not a problem with our formation. Been said a lot recently, but I really think people overestimate the importance of the numbers in a formation and underestimate the system as a whole and style of play.

2 & 3. Yeah. Just not buying it. This to me is like saying that Bale will become a world class left back, or that Harry Kane can't play as a #9. Both Eriksen and Lamela are talented players capable of playing multiple positions and roles. Funnily enough you get people complaining about Poch playing Eriksen in the centre when he's there and people complaining about him being played on the left when he's there. At this stage in their careers to try to pigeonhole what their best position is whilst simultaneously complaining about others (namely Pochettino) not being flexible enough is the kind of thing that makes an argument look rather silly to me.

4. Yeah. No. 3-4-3? Really? 4-2-3-1 is a very frequently used formation these days. As frail as 3-4-3 that is barely used over an extended period of time by anyone bar a select few? Not seeing it, nor the argument by analogy used to defend it.

5. Our deep central midfield duo is currently 20 and 23 years old. They have 33 and 26 top flight league starts respectively. The player primarily playing ahead of them is 23 and with 57 Premier League starts he kinda represents the experience in the front 6 along with 25 year old Nacer Chadli who has 40 PL starts. Our backup options for the front 6 scarcely need more criticism aimed at them at this point.

Yes. I will go out on a limb here and say that in terms of consistency, positioning, off the ball movement patterns I would expect an improvement if very good players with more experience at this level were brought in. Or from just giving these players a bit more time under Pochettino. Or at the very least having players available at a similar level and experience who can provide cover and competition for places. But even as I write that I feel like I would be wasting my time arguing this against someone that has stated "Overall I can't stand 4231".

I'm not surprised that a team with Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Steven Davies was more solid than one with Bentaleb, Mason and Eriksen as they currently are.

If this post was a night out it would have started with finding twenty quid someone had dropped on the pavement outside your front door. It woukd have followed getting a free lift into town by your sister who tells you that she was just passing to let you know that we'd all been left £10,000 in grandma's will.

In town all your best mates will have made it out, including your mate that always says he'll come out but always bails last minute. He's out because he won at the bookies, is drunk already and insists every round is his for the next 2 hours.

The night is cut short by pulling the fittest bird who pays for a taxi back to her flat she shares with two kinky but STD free female students who are up for foursomes with stangers.

 

[Robspur12]

I have watched the city game again and specifically watched how we did defensively. My own observations were

1) Our Back 5 are fairly solid. Fazio in particular is very commanding in the air and Rose has come on leaps and bounds in his defensive play.

2) against tricky players like silva and Aguero we mostly kept our shape,

3) our midfield in particular are too easily drawn to the ball thereby leaving space for runners to get into. I think Mason has a particular weakness as was shown up in the Aguero goal. But it happens time and time again which opens us up in a way I didn't see city open up. If you keep doing this you will eventually give away goals which we do. This why I think someone who reads the game as well as schneiderlin will help improve us as Southampton are not opened up so easily.

4) our defensive shape is let down in part, by a failure of the three behind the strikers to track runners when an attack breaks down. Lamela is probably the best of the three but he needs to improve his concentration and overall defensive play. Eriksen and Chadli are dreadful defensively.

5) Eriksen was better defensively and generally "more busy" earlier in the season. I suspect his drop in performance is down to tiredness. I wonder if Mason is in the same boat. I hope by next season they have become more acclimatised to the physical demands of playing lots of games and tough training sessions or Poch has more options to rotate them.

6) Without dembele we do not press so well high up the pitch.

7) I no longer s***t myself at us defending set pieces.

Oh and we have stopped scoring late goals.

 

[90sSpursBook]

Here's a novel idea......let's give Poch 3 years and not make any definitive judgements on him until the end of the 2016-17 season?

If Ferguson had been judged on his first 12 months etc.......even if Venables had been judged on his first 12 months (Nov 87 - Nov 88) he'd have got the boot long before the Gazza/Lineker duo were put together. Had Burkinshaw been sacked after his first 12 months etc etc

 

[veron23]

Ok. So in order, for me at least....

1. I just disagree. We don't play with a "2 man midfield". There have been plenty of instances where we could have done better. But for me this is not a problem with our formation. Been said a lot recently, but I really think people overestimate the importance of the numbers in a formation and underestimate the system as a whole and style of play.

2 & 3. Yeah. Just not buying it. This to me is like saying that Bale will become a world class left back, or that Harry Kane can't play as a #9. Both Eriksen and Lamela are talented players capable of playing multiple positions and roles. Funnily enough you get people complaining about Poch playing Eriksen in the centre when he's there and people complaining about him being played on the left when he's there. At this stage in their careers to try to pigeonhole what their best position is whilst simultaneously complaining about others (namely Pochettino) not being flexible enough is the kind of thing that makes an argument look rather silly to me.

4. Yeah. No. 3-4-3? Really? 4-2-3-1 is a very frequently used formation these days. As frail as 3-4-3 that is barely used over an extended period of time by anyone bar a select few? Not seeing it, nor the argument by analogy used to defend it.

5. Our deep central midfield duo is currently 20 and 23 years old. They have 33 and 26 top flight league starts respectively. The player primarily playing ahead of them is 23 and with 57 Premier League starts he kinda represents the experience in the front 6 along with 25 year old Nacer Chadli who has 40 PL starts. Our backup options for the front 6 scarcely need more criticism aimed at them at this point.

Yes. I will go out on a limb here and say that in terms of consistency, positioning, off the ball movement patterns I would expect an improvement if very good players with more experience at this level were brought in. Or from just giving these players a bit more time under Pochettino. Or at the very least having players available at a similar level and experience who can provide cover and competition for places. But even as I write that I feel like I would be wasting my time arguing this against someone that has stated "Overall I can't stand 4231".

I'm not surprised that a team with Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Steven Davies was more solid than one with Bentaleb, Mason and Eriksen as they currently are.

Mate I tend to agree with most of your posts but on this occasion you either you don't understand whats really going on with our team or I just didn't articulate myself properly. "4231 is frequently used" when teams have the ball. My point which I'm sure I said quite clearly is that when teams don't have the ball they are coached to not leave the 2 midfielders isolated. Chelsea play 4231 but when the ball is in their half Oscar drops along side Fabregas and Matic withdraws further and screens everything between the lines. There is nothing for you to "buy", its just a fact.

Even if we buy Iniesta and Vidal next year as our midfield 2 and leave them to their own devices you will see the same problems.

Lets re visit this next season and maybe my point will become clearer.

 

[billyiddo]

Isn't how he set Southampton up though? Wanyama the one to drop deep to screen the back four and Davis (?) to come back to pitch in with Schneiderlin - i have noticed this season, in patches, moments where Bentaleb drops back and Eriksen coming deeper in to the CM positions, though not with any regularity

 

[Jurgen the German]

I'd say our tiny pitch and often poisonous crowd mean playing at home has been a disadvantage for us, at least since the Jol years.

Not this again. Our home support is not great, but whose is?

Emirates Marketing Project - Plastics. Don't even sell out most games.
Chelsea - Racist plastics.
Arsenal - Prawn sandwiches phalanx who leave 15 mins early to catch that Finsbury Park train that comes every 10 minutes.
United - Prawn sandwich bridgade.
Liverpool - Overrated.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Gudjohnsen summed up how I feel about Poch on Sunday. Good season, not great but not bad either.

 

[thfcsteff]

Mate I tend to agree with most of your posts but on this occasion you either you don't understand whats really going on with our team or I just didn't articulate myself properly. "4231 is frequently used" when teams have the ball. My point which I'm sure I said quite clearly is that when teams don't have the ball they are coached to not leave the 2 midfielders isolated. Chelsea play 4231 but when the ball is in their half Oscar drops along side Fabregas and Matic withdraws further and screens everything between the lines. There is nothing for you to "buy", its just a fact.

Even if we buy Iniesta and Vidal next year as our midfield 2 and leave them to their own devices you will see the same problems.

Lets re visit this next season and maybe my point will become clearer.

I'm sure you've seen a few of my posts on this topic, the ones which have repeatedly stated that the biggest breakdown in our current system is when the 'wide' players don't drop back and cover. Chadli, Eriksen, Townsend, Lamela. We are stronger in this regard when Lamela plays because he does get back, but Chadli often trots about like a show pony! Great talent, an enigma really, because he could be sensational. Don't think Poch hasn't seen this, and don't think he doesn't want to address it. Mourinho blocked both Oscar and Hazard several times last season for not doing similar stuff, and this season we see the results...

 

[Mulletperm]

I'm sure you've seen a few of my posts on this topic, the ones which have repeatedly stated that the biggest breakdown in our current system is when the 'wide' players don't drop back and cover. Chadli, Eriksen, Townsend, Lamela. We are stronger in this regard when Lamela plays because he does get back, but Chadli often trots about like a show pony! Great talent, an enigma really, because he could be sensational. Don't think Poch hasn't seen this, and don't think he doesn't want to address it. Mourinho blocked both Oscar and Hazard several times last season for not doing similar stuff, and this season we see the results...

Seeing Chadli and Eriksen jogging back when we're on the back foot drives me absolutely crazy. It happens constantly and is one of the reasons those two players wind me up so much, as their buying into that defensive aspect is a key part of the way Poch wants us to play.

 

[braineclipse]

If this post was a night out it would have started with finding twenty quid someone had dropped on the pavement outside your front door. It woukd have followed getting a free lift into town by your sister who tells you that she was just passing to let you know that we'd all been left £10,000 in grandma's will.

In town all your best mates will have made it out, including your mate that always says he'll come out but always bails last minute. He's out because he won at the bookies, is drunk already and insists every round is his for the next 2 hours.

The night is cut short by pulling the fittest bird who pays for a taxi back to her flat she shares with two kinky but STD free female students who are up for foursomes with stangers.

Cheers.

Mate I tend to agree with most of your posts but on this occasion you either you don't understand whats really going on with our team or I just didn't articulate myself properly. "4231 is frequently used" when teams have the ball. My point which I'm sure I said quite clearly is that when teams don't have the ball they are coached to not leave the 2 midfielders isolated. Chelsea play 4231 but when the ball is in their half Oscar drops along side Fabregas and Matic withdraws further and screens everything between the lines. There is nothing for you to "buy", its just a fact.

Even if we buy Iniesta and Vidal next year as our midfield 2 and leave them to their own devices you will see the same problems.

Lets re visit this next season and maybe my point will become clearer.

I'm not disagreeing with Chelsea doing this (at least quite often). I'm disagreeing with everything else.

You're seemingly saying that this is pretty much the way we have to defend in a 4-2-3-1. I disagree, there are plenty of examples of teams doing it differently.

You're seemingly saying that Chelsea being capable of doing this has nothing to do with money. I disagree.

 

[metalgear]

i can understand the need for stability and the call for "faith" in the manager, however to me poch is still an unproven manager, unproven in the league and unproven in europe, and definitely not beyond reproach or criticism.

 

[veron23]

So when Pulis took over Palace Palace and they immediately were better defensively that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad??

So when Pulis took over West Brom and they immediately were better defensively that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad??

So when Arsenal beat Emirates Marketing Project when Arsene Wenger finally clocked onto the defensive triangle that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad?? and the player they brought in to fill the defensive triangle was Coquelin.. who cost how much???

So if I sat here and gave hundreds of examples of defensive triangles dating all the way back the 60's when Liverpool dominated football playing this way that was down to money and not coaching? even tho the difference in teams "values" wasn't that much?

So coaching is irrelevant? Eriksen can't drop back into position cos he doesn't cost 50m?

Right, ok then. Finally I understand

 

[braineclipse]

So when Pulis took over Palace Palace and they immediately were better defensively that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad??

So when Pulis took over West Brom and they immediately were better defensively that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad??

So when Arsenal beat Emirates Marketing Project when Arsene Wenger finally clocked onto the defensive triangle that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad?? and the player they brought in to fill the defensive triangle was Coquelin.. who cost how much???

So if I sat here and gave hundreds of examples of defensive triangles dating all the way back the 60's when Liverpool dominated football playing this way that was down to money and not coaching? even tho the difference in teams "values" wasn't that much?

So coaching is irrelevant? Eriksen can't drop back into position cos he doesn't cost 50m?

Right, ok then. Finally I understand

What you claimed earlier was: "it has zero to do with money".

What you're now arguing against: "coaching is irrelevant".

Anyone want to play "name that logical fallacy?" I can spot at least two that I think would be accurate.

 

[Armchair Expert]

What you claimed earlier was: "it has zero to do with money".

What you're now arguing against: "coaching is irrelevant".

Anyone want to play "name that logical fallacy?" I can spot at least two that I think would be accurate.

ooooh looks like you're ducking and weaving a bit there. Bit of a lack of substance in this reply me thinks

 

[thfcsteff]

So when Pulis took over Palace Palace and they immediately were better defensively that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad??

So when Pulis took over West Brom and they immediately were better defensively that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad??

So when Arsenal beat Emirates Marketing Project when Arsene Wenger finally clocked onto the defensive triangle that was down to money and not coaching? even tho it was the same squad?? and the player they brought in to fill the defensive triangle was Coquelin.. who cost how much???

So if I sat here and gave hundreds of examples of defensive triangles dating all the way back the 60's when Liverpool dominated football playing this way that was down to money and not coaching? even tho the difference in teams "values" wasn't that much?

So coaching is irrelevant? Eriksen can't drop back into position cos he doesn't cost 50m?

Right, ok then. Finally I understand

Again, I think it is pretty clear from earlier in the season that Poch looks for the high-press and an immediate 'cover' from those two 'wide' players on transitions. The reason our two deeper midfielders have been getting increasingly isolated (to my eye) is that we are simply not transitioning into this system/coverage as high up the pitch as we were earlier in the season. At one point around December, I could not believe how efficient we were in hunting the ball down in PACKS in the opposition third. It was superb. Now, however, the likes of Chadli and Eriksen are knackered, Andros drifts and we are left drifting all over the place, with that overload you speak of happening. I genuinely think Poch needs squad players he trusts more. Dembele and Paulinho should, in theory, work, but they are not his cup of tea for whatever reason. I think in Poch we have the right guy personally...let's hope he gets the right players ;-)

 

[braineclipse]

ooooh looks like you're ducking and weaving a bit there. Bit of a lack of substance in this reply me thinks

You're right...

I really should have pointed out how some of those examples really make little sense in addition to the money/coaching issues. Like Wenger all of a sudden discovering the defensive triangle when one deep holding midfielder with two more box to box players has been a fixture under Wenger for years and years. Or how Pulis all of a sudden brought the defensive triangle to WBA, as if no one else had tried a defensive midfielder at WBA before. And when Pulis actually had sustained success at Stoke often playing a 4-4-2.

But with a CL semi-final to watch, who has the time...?