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Jan Vertonghen

Finney Is Back said:
I'm not sure he has done that.... I think he is just a much better player than Fazio that's all. Put Toby alongside Fazio, take away the protection of Dier and either replace Walker with Chiriches or ask Walker to play while carrying an injury so that we have the same defensive line-up as last season and I doubt we'd look any better at the back as we did last season with Vertonghen there.
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I totally beg to differ; Vertonghen's individual play can often lead to sloppy goals conceded that are of his own making and are irrelevant of the CM pairing in front of him etc, it often happens from around February as well...i do wonder if he's always suffererd from a lack of a winter break with us, though imo he should be used to it by now so let's see if we see the same brick from February this season again...
 
glorygloryeze said:
I totally beg to differ; Vertonghen's individual play can often lead to sloppy goals conceded that are of his own making and are irrelevant of the CM pairing in front of him etc, it often happens from around February as well...i do wonder if he's always suffererd from a lack of a winter break with us, though imo he should be used to it by now so let's see if we see the same brick from February this season again...
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Fair enough... Let's agree to disagree. I could argue for instance that it was Toby letting Giroud drift off the back of him on Sunday that forced Walker to have to come more central and leave Gibbs in space for the far post cross from Ozil. Was that sloppy play from Toby?
 
Finney Is Back said:
Fair enough... Let's agree to disagree. I could argue for instance that it was Toby letting Giroud drift off the back of him on Sunday that forced Walker to have to come more central and leave Gibbs in space for the far post cross from Ozil. Was that sloppy play from Toby?
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Quite possibly, but you'd more routinely see that from Jan...plus sloppy airshots like vs Swansea or maybe ducking out of the way like vs Leicester..we could go on...
 
glorygloryeze said:
Quite possibly, but you'd more routinely see that from Jan...plus sloppy airshots like vs Swansea or maybe ducking out of the way like vs Leicester..we could go on...
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I would imagine that when Toby has been here for a full season then we will be able to pick out sloppy moments from him too. No centre half is perfect. I happen to think that we have two of the best ones in the PL at our club right now, with it being possible to make arguments for either of them to be better than the other one.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I would imagine that when Toby has been here for a full season then we will be able to pick out sloppy moments from him too. No centre half is perfect. I happen to think that we have two of the best ones in the PL at our club right now, with it being possible to make arguments for either of them to be better than the other one.
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We certainly have a good pairing and yes Toby's deficiencies will be picked up - like they are for any of our players.
I'd be very surprised if it turns out overall that Jan ends up being seen as better than Toby though...
 
Finney Is Back said:
I would imagine that when Toby has been here for a full season then we will be able to pick out sloppy moments from him too. No centre half is perfect. I happen to think that we have two of the best ones in the PL at our club right now, with it being possible to make arguments for either of them to be better than the other one.
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Amen to that.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I would imagine that when Toby has been here for a full season then we will be able to pick out sloppy moments from him too. No centre half is perfect. I happen to think that we have two of the best ones in the PL at our club right now, with it being possible to make arguments for either of them to be better than the other one.
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What argument could be made against Toby at the moment? Bearing in mind you rightly point out no defender is perfect.
 
you could argue that his clearance led to the scums goal on sunday.Overall though he has been fantastic for us.Really a different level to Fazio.
 
jabbathehut said:
you could argue that his clearance led to the scums goal on sunday.Overall though he has been fantastic for us.Really a different level to Fazio.
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You could also argue that Ozil wasn't pressured and had time to measure his cross, that Eriksen didn't track back to cover Gibbs and that Lloris would usually make that save. Giving support to the common theory that goals are USUALLY the result of several mistakes/lapses in concentration/less than excellent play.
 
Robspur12 said:
Imo you have come to the wrong conclusion about Vertonghen. In his first season he was often poor when he played alongside Gallas and Caulker but improved when Dawson came into the team. The much maligned Dawson actually bought some stability to that defence and his presence lifted verts. Hence AVB continued to play Daws. Easy to overlook this because the narrative was Dawson was brick. Toby has come and basically done what Dawson did that season imo, bringing some stability.

Why do we focus on Vertonghen rather than Toby? Because he has been at Spurs longer we have far more instances of his sloppiness. I have yet to see this with Toby.

That is not to say I do not like Vertonghen or think he is not good. I just wouldn't trust him to lead our defensive line.
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Not how I've ever see it and not how I see the evidence stacking up. I've never thought that Dawson was brick, though I have thought that he was limited. Dawson was very good alongside King, good alongside Gallas and so on did well alongside players that could lead the back 4 and allow him to do his thing next to them. Dawson never managed to form a good partnership with Kaboul (even when he was good)or Bassong, other players that needed a Gallas/King next to them. That to me adds up to Dawson not being that leader at the back, despite sometimes shouting.

Vertonghen looked very good in our first season. Gallas iirc looked very poor, as did Caulker. I don't think Vertonghen can be blamed for those players looking bad, again I don't think Dawson did anything to raise their game when he played.

Vertonghen again managed to form a decent partnership with Fazio last season. And although he got his fair share of criticism he looked our best central defender by some distance again last season. Probably why Pochettino kept him in the side and got a good partner for him. It's all too easy to just give Toby the credit now, just like Dier is seemingly getting all the credit for making us more solid than last season by some. We have no real idea of knowing how Toby would have done in place of Vertonghen last season. I don't think examples being brought up from Southampton are at all convincing.

Let's just cross our fingers and hope that both Toby and Jan remain injury free for as much of this season as possible. A clear first choice high quality centre back partnership without injury problems has been a real blessing and something I quite literally cannot remember when we last had.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I would imagine that when Toby has been here for a full season then we will be able to pick out sloppy moments from him too. No centre half is perfect. I happen to think that we have two of the best ones in the PL at our club right now, with it being possible to make arguments for either of them to be better than the other one.
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Just my opinion of course but I think , from what I have seen so far John Stones is better than Verts in terms of organising the defence and leadership. He can also play a bit. Think he will be miles better than "Mr Chelsea" John Terry.
 
Robspur12 said:
Just my opinion of course but I think , from what I have seen so far John Stones is better than Verts in terms of organising the defence and leadership. He can also play a bit. Think he will be miles better than "Mr Chel53a" John Terry.
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Disagree with that about Stones, from what I have seen so far he is another young English player who has been overhyped. Now he may turn out to be a very good player but for now he is not anywhere near the level of either of our CB's ( imo).
 
LutonSpurs said:
Not sure there are many defenders who Giroud hasn't tormented in the air, he is very good at getting to the ball. Thankfully his finishing is awful.
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Been saying the same thing to the moaners at the game, Giroud ( along with Benteke) is the best in the air ( imo) and we will not be the only side this season who will struggle to match him in the air.
 
To be honest, I think this argument about whether Jan is a leader or not, whether he is a dominant CB or not, if he is a team player etc.... is all a bit pointless. The fact remains he had a great first season, looking like a leader, looking like a dominant CB and definitely looking like a team player. He then had a very average season, and then some seasons in keeping with the rest of our squad i.e. inconsistent.

Now, he and Toby seem to have struck up a great understanding with eachother, the team is much better defensively as a whole by getting the pressing. I couldn't care less whether Jan has the ability to lead a line. Him and Toby are performing admirably. And it's obvious that Poch sees some leadership qualities in him, otherwise he wouldn't be the person the captain's armband goes to when Hugo and Harry are not playing. We have one of the best defensive records in the league and at least some of the credit has to go to Jan.

There's not a defender in the league who has not made mistakes this season, and even the real leaders (Terry, Cahill, Shawcross, Kompany, Mertesacker, Skyrtel.....erm you can see I'm running out of defenders) have made as many if not more mistakes than our Jan. The real issue, imho, is that there just aren't that many good central defenders around. There is no one of Ledley's or Woodgate's class anymore. It's a bit of a lost art-form.
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
To be honest, I think this argument about whether Jan is a leader or not, whether he is a dominant CB or not, if he is a team player etc.... is all a bit pointless. The fact remains he had a great first season, looking like a leader, looking like a dominant CB and definitely looking like a team player. He then had a very average season, and then some seasons in keeping with the rest of our squad i.e. inconsistent.

Now, he and Toby seem to have struck up a great understanding with eachother, the team is much better defensively as a whole by getting the pressing. I couldn't care less whether Jan has the ability to lead a line. Him and Toby are performing admirably. And it's obvious that Poch sees some leadership qualities in him, otherwise he wouldn't be the person the captain's armband goes to when Hugo and Harry are not playing. We have one of the best defensive records in the league and at least some of the credit has to go to Jan.

There's not a defender in the league who has not made mistakes this season, and even the real leaders (Terry, Cahill, Shawcross, Kompany, Mertesacker, Skyrtel.....erm you can see I'm running out of defenders) have made as many if not more mistakes than our Jan. The real issue, imho, is that there just aren't that many good central defenders around. There is no one of Ledley's or Woodgate's class anymore. It's a bit of a lost art-form.
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My thoughts as well.
 
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