Ingerlund

[milo]

I'm proud of this England team. They have done incredibly well this last month. They are the best of us.

 

[Raziel]

Southgate's caution cost us in the end. You can get away with it against the lesser teams but the better teams will find a way to dominate.

You do not need both Rice and Phillips in midfield, they offer nothing offensively as neither can pass the ball, they are just destroyers.

Foden, Grealish and Sancho criminally overlooked for players who 'offer more defensively' like Mount (who was crap all tournament) and Saka.

The squad has bags of attacking potential but Southgate doesn't have the balls to use it.

This +

- Players need to be fudging told -> get the ball to Kane, you make a run, you cross the ball, you make a pass, look for fudging Harry always. Zero point having one the world's best strikers and passing him the ball only when he's deep in midfield.
- Mount, Saka, even Sancho & Foden are good options but I think you struggle with multiple of them on the pitch at the same time
- Use the fudging subs early

 

[Jurgen the German]

I like Southgate he seems like a decent man. I do think he should have utilised Grealish among others a lot more than he did but he did get us to a final. Yes we had some luck and we had 6/7 games at home with very little travel but he got us closer than any other England manager has since 1966. We always seem to spacegoat the manager whenever we go out of a tournament. The players seem to largely get away without too much criticism, the racist abuse aside which is abhorrent. Even Rio Ferdinand was at it last night. He was talking about how the players in 2006 didn’t mix well and couldn’t put club rivalries aside. Lineker asked him how as players they could let themselves act like that and Ferdinand basically threw Sven under the bus. I’m not a big fan of Sven and yeah maybe he didn’t help by not encouraging the players to mix and could he have done more to create a more harmonious camp? But the players are adults, they shouldn’t need a manager to tell them they need to put club rivalries to one side for 4 weeks every 2 years. The blame culture against the manager is just such a lazy cliche. Not saying Southgate got everything right, you can’t argue too much with results bar last night where he got outcoached by Mancini.

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1414329265370370049

 

[tommysvr]

The carry on about England is getting pathetic. You lost a game of football to a very good team. It happens!

 

[Raziel]

I like Southgate he seems like a decent man. I do think he should have utilised Grealish among others a lot more than he did but he did get us to a final. Yes we had some luck and we had 6/7 games at home with very little travel but he got us closer than any other England manager has since 1966. We always seem to spacegoat the manager whenever we go out of a tournament. The players seem to largely get away without too much criticism, the racist abuse aside which is abhorrent. Even Rio Ferdinand was at it last night. He was talking about how the players in 2006 didn’t mix well and couldn’t put club rivalries aside. Lineker asked him how as players they could let themselves act like that and Ferdinand basically threw Sven under the bus. I’m not a big fan of Sven and yeah maybe he didn’t help by not encouraging the players to mix and could he have done more to create a more harmonious camp? But the players are adults, they shouldn’t need a manager to tell them they need to put club rivalries to one side for 4 weeks every 2 years. The blame culture against the manager is just such a lazy cliche. Not saying Southgate got everything right, you can’t argue too much with results bar last night where he got outcoached by Mancini.

But isn't that the issue?

- Southgate has implemented a very conservative approach to England (a side with way more attacking talent than defensive or possession players) to get him to the final.

He then got a dream start, and he froze under the pressure when Mancini made changes, when anyone/everyone could see the momentum changing, the game going away from England, that is the definition of poor management when it counts.

He is absolutely to blame for not responding to Italy's changes, he's absolutely to blame for leaving Mount on for so long, he's absolutely to blame for waiting till way too late to bring on Grealish, he's absolutely (and should be hung to dry on this one, I'd be livid if Saka was a Spurs players) to blame for putting a 19 year old to take the decisive penalty in a shootout.

England has flaws -> Shaw, Stones and Phillips shouldn't be starters for a top international team, and the DM & CM roles are a little light, but you have to pick a team, and play to your strengths. Southgate is the definition of a mediocre manager.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The most annoying thing is seeing and knowing what is going to happen. On here, posted that the side needed more bravery and forward-thinking players selected against better teams. Posted on here at the time he came on, that bringing on Sancho cold for a pen was doomed to failure. I think the issue is @tommysvr this wasn't any old game. This was maybe a once in a lifetime final. With England at home and 1 up with arguably the better players. When Chissa went off, we were undoubtedly the more potent team. A better manager who gives players confidence to play, gets us over the line imo.

 

[Jurgen the German]

But isn't that the issue?

- Southgate has implemented a very conservative approach to England (a side with way more attacking talent than defensive or possession players) to get him to the final.

He then got a dream start, and he froze under the pressure when Mancini made changes, when anyone/everyone could see the momentum changing, the game going away from England, that is the definition of poor management when it counts.

He is absolutely to blame for not responding to Italy's changes, he's absolutely to blame for leaving Mount on for so long, he's absolutely to blame for waiting till way too late to bring on Grealish, he's absolutely (and should be hung to dry on this one, I'd be livid if Saka was a Spurs players) to blame for putting a 19 year old to take the decisive penalty in a shootout.

England has flaws -> Shaw, Stones and Phillips shouldn't be starters for a top international team, and the DM & CM roles are a little light, but you have to pick a team, and play to your strengths. Southgate is the definition of a mediocre manager.

Agree he was too cautious and reactive last night, made the wrong subs at the wrong times etc. But look at our spine. Goes without saying Kane is world class, but the CM’s, CB’s and GK are not. I’d agree he made mistakes last night but the overall performance of the team in the competition and the end result I.e. losing finals on penalties is better than we have achieved in 55 years. We always blame the manager and the players usually get away with it. It’s always Sven or Capello or Gareth. I’m not saying England managers haven’t made massive mistakes but it’s got to be a little bit on the players too right? What Ferdinand said really irked me about blaming managers for not breaking cliques and club rivalries killing the golden generation. They are not children, they’re fully grown adults. Put aside your club rivalry for 4 weeks every two years.

 

[Alaric]

This +

- Players need to be fudging told -> get the ball to Kane, you make a run, you cross the ball, you make a pass, look for fudging Harry always. Zero point having one the world's best strikers and passing him the ball only when he's deep in midfield.
- Mount, Saka, even Sancho & Foden are good options but I think you struggle with multiple of them on the pitch at the same time
- Use the fudging subs early

This has always been what puzzled me about this England team, why wasn't it set up with the primary (and secondary and tertiary) mission to get Harry Kane chances? International teams don't have tons of time together, so why not make it simple for everyone: get.ball.to.Kane.

I saw some of the commentators saying that Kane should have dropped deep less in the final, to be in position to get chances in the box. (???) He dropped deep because it had been made abundantly clear over the tournament that no chances were coming his way. If he hadn't come deep he'd have been learning Italian from Chiellini and Bonucci 30+ yards from where the ball was.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'm proud of this England team. They have done incredibly well this last month. They are the best of us.

Hear, hear.

Watching the post-match furore erupt over the penalty takers, Southgate's tactics, Kane's struggles against Bonucci and Chiellini...

..it's understandable, but to me, it misses the point.

When you look at the tournament as a whole, only one thing comes to mind for me, and it's an apt summation of the joy and espirit de corps this England side has brought to a weary nation emerging from the worst health crisis of the modern age.

Somtimes, you can do everything right...and still lose. That isn't failure. That's life.

Well done, lads. Chin up - when the dust settles, no one will forget what you did.

 

[Raziel]

This has always been what puzzled me about this England team, why wasn't it set up with the primary (and secondary and tertiary) mission to get Harry Kane chances? International teams don't have tons of time together, so why not make it simple for everyone: get.ball.to.Kane.

I saw some of the commentators saying that Kane should have dropped deep less in the final, to be in position to get chances in the box. (???) He dropped deep because it had been made abundantly clear over the tournament that no chances were coming his way. If he hadn't come deep he'd have been learning Italian from Chiellini and Bonucci 30+ yards from where the ball was.

so there are actually two answers to that

1. A lot of the attacking players (Sterling, Mount, Foden) are from City/Chelsea that don't have a key striker to focus around (so City and their false 9 setup), so it isn't natural for them
2. Poor management and tactics

The 2nd makes the 1st even worse.

The amount of passes that Shaw, Sterling, Rice, Mount, etc. made that weren't aimed at Kane throughout the tournament is criminal, the instructions should be simple, Kane first ..

 

[Modric THFC]

Hear, hear.

Watching the post-match furore erupt over the penalty takers, Southgate's tactics, Kane's struggles against Bonucci and Chiellini...

..it's understandable, but to me, it misses the point.

When you look at the tournament as a whole, only one thing comes to mind for me, and it's an apt summation of the joy and espirit de corps this England side has brought to a weary nation emerging from the worst health crisis of the modern age.

Somtimes, you can do everything right...and still lose. That isn't failure. That's life.

Well done, lads. Chin up - when the dust settles, no one will forget what you did.

Sometimes you can do everything right ...

Sure you can ignore what actually happened in the game and pretend they did everything right to make yourself feel better.

But that was a mess.

England will never have a better chance.

And there won't be another tournament in England for another 30 years.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Sometimes you can do everything right ...

Sure you can ignore what actually happened in the game and pretend they did everything right to make yourself feel better.

But that was a mess.

England will never have a better chance.

And there won't be another tournament in England for another 30 years.

As I saw it, England played in the final the same way they had in every game leading up to it - if you're going to criticise them for what happened in that final game, it also needs to be recognised that those same methods brought them to the point, after close to a thousand minutes of tournament football, where the game could be won if two kicks went the other way.

Three at the back? Southgate used it to good effect in other games. Rice + Phillips midfield combo? Ditto. Late subs/reluctance to use subs? Didn't hurt England previously.

England played as they always have at this tournament - Italy, likewise. In the end, random chance smiled on Italy, but it could genuinely have gone either way.

The boys gave everything, the team wasn't badly coached, and for once, you saw a united team that played for England, as Englishmen first - not as United/Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenal players first, or superstars first, obsessed with their personal images. And these things got them to the final, enthralling a nation along the way.

Sigh. When Germany finished 3rd in the World Cup in 2006 (having lost to the Italians in the semi-final, funnily enough), it was heralded as a recovery from the modern nadir of the German national team at Euro 2004 - the German team were warmly celebrated on their return home, and no one seemed to mind that they hadn't won the thing outright. That's Germany, a nation that has won far more than England ever has.

They then persevered through a series of near misses at Euro 2008, the World Cup in 2010, and Euro 2012 before finally lifting the World Cup again in 2014.

These things happen. England has done well, and the final was far from a mess - just one of those days where two evenly-matched sides were separated by chance and fortune.

There will be more chances. In a year's time, for example, and then again two years after that.

Chin up, mate.

 

[Modric THFC]

As I saw it, England played in the final the same way they had in every game leading up to it - if you're going to criticise them for what happened in that final game, it also needs to be recognised that those same methods brought them to the point, after close to a thousand minutes of tournament football, where the game could be won if two kicks went the other way.

Three at the back? Southgate used it to good effect in other games. Rice + Phillips midfield combo? Ditto. Late subs/reluctance to use subs? Didn't hurt England previously.

England played as they always have at this tournament - Italy, likewise. In the end, random chance smiled on Italy, but it could genuinely have gone either way.

The boys gave everything, the team wasn't badly coached, and for once, you saw a united team that played for England, as Englishmen first - not as United/Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenal players first, or superstars first, obsessed with their personal images. And these things got them to the final, enthralling a nation along the way.

Sigh. When Germany finished 3rd in the World Cup in 2006 (having lost to the Italians in the semi-final, funnily enough), it was heralded as a recovery from the modern nadir of the German national team at Euro 2004 - the German team were warmly celebrated on their return home, and no one seemed to mind that they hadn't won the thing outright. That's Germany, a nation that has won far more than England ever has.

They then persevered through a series of near misses at Euro 2008, the World Cup in 2010, and Euro 2012 before finally lifting the World Cup again in 2014.

These things happen. England has done well, and the final was far from a mess - just one of those days where two evenly-matched sides were separated by chance and fortune.

There will be more chances. In a year's time, for example, and then again two years after that.

Chin up, mate.

Chin up, haha.

Mate I was in absolute fear that England would win or else we'd be hearing about it forever.

I viewed this game through an Italian lens. Watch the first 30 minutes back. Italy were gone five minutes in.
I was hoping they somehow just lasted until half time and could regroup.
But England stood off, let them recover, have a little possession and sort themselves out.
England had Italy on the ropes but "pragmatic" Southgate's team decided to play the long game and win on points.

Then Mancini changed Italy's shape and Italy dominated.

Southgate's conservative nature meant England only used 3 subs even though they have a stacked squad that I feared would dominate in extra time.

Southgate's choice of penalty taker and letting players take a penalty cold, shows he has somehow learned nothing from 1996.

Qatar will be too hot for England. They were complaining about not having a drinks break against Croatia.

`

 

[braineclipse]

As I saw it, England played in the final the same way they had in every game leading up to it - if you're going to criticise them for what happened in that final game, it also needs to be recognised that those same methods brought them to the point, after close to a thousand minutes of tournament football, where the game could be won if two kicks went the other way.

Three at the back? Southgate used it to good effect in other games. Rice + Phillips midfield combo? Ditto. Late subs/reluctance to use subs? Didn't hurt England previously.

England played as they always have at this tournament - Italy, likewise. In the end, random chance smiled on Italy, but it could genuinely have gone either way.

The boys gave everything, the team wasn't badly coached, and for once, you saw a united team that played for England, as Englishmen first - not as United/Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenal players first, or superstars first, obsessed with their personal images. And these things got them to the final, enthralling a nation along the way.

Sigh. When Germany finished 3rd in the World Cup in 2006 (having lost to the Italians in the semi-final, funnily enough), it was heralded as a recovery from the modern nadir of the German national team at Euro 2004 - the German team were warmly celebrated on their return home, and no one seemed to mind that they hadn't won the thing outright. That's Germany, a nation that has won far more than England ever has.

They then persevered through a series of near misses at Euro 2008, the World Cup in 2010, and Euro 2012 before finally lifting the World Cup again in 2014.

These things happen. England has done well, and the final was far from a mess - just one of those days where two evenly-matched sides were separated by chance and fortune.

There will be more chances. In a year's time, for example, and then again two years after that.

Chin up, mate.

I agree with most of that, but I do think England were second best. Partly in the final because of a handy run of knockout games and even if given just about the best start possible in the final still ending up looking second best.

Being this good does give England a chance at a title, but I think the question is if Southgate can make them even better or if this more cautious approach will remain is choice even when Grealish, Foden, Sancho etc take the next step (assuming they do).

There's an even better England team at least possible 1-3 years from now. Not convinced Southgate is the man to really get the best out of this lot. But he's earned the chance I guess.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree with most of that, but I do think England were second best. Partly in the final because of a handy run of knockout games and even if given just about the best start possible in the final still ending up looking second best.

Being this good does give England a chance at a title, but I think the question is if Southgate can make them even better or if this more cautious approach will remain is choice even when Grealish, Foden, Sancho etc take the next step (assuming they do).

There's an even better England team at least possible 1-3 years from now. Not convinced Southgate is the man to really get the best out of this lot. But he's earned the chance I guess.

The England team in 3 years strike in Germany will be immense if he is brave as a coach (although I do worry he will keep on favouring his friendly players)

Kane will be the oldest player at 30 years old
Pickford could easily still be i goal and he has never let England down. Right back is fully loaded with options and the left backs aren’t shabby
Ben white and Godfrey can come in at CB and stones and Maguire will still be there
CM could easily progress to maybe Bellingham and skipp (let’s see how skipp progresses here)
Then you will have sancho, Foden, saka behind Kane. Mount could be there. Sterling isn’t going away. Dele could have a revival… rashford may get good. Greenwood will become a hell of a CF too
That’s a basis of a brilliant side IMO

 

[Jurgen the German]

The England team in 3 years strike in Germany will be immense if he is brave as a coach (although I do worry he will keep on favouring his friendly players)

Kane will be the oldest player at 30 years old
Pickford could easily still be i goal and he has never let England down. Right back is fully loaded with options and the left backs aren’t shabby
Ben white and Godfrey can come in at CB and stones and Maguire will still be there
CM could easily progress to maybe Bellingham and skipp (let’s see how skipp progresses here)
Then you will have sancho, Foden, saka behind Kane. Mount could be there. Sterling isn’t going away. Dele could have a revival… rashford may get good. Greenwood will become a hell of a CF too
That’s a basis of a brilliant side IMO

We have a good future. We have also never won anything or even reached a final outside of England. Can you imagine us winning a final in Germany on penalties against the Germans? Teams like Italy and Germany are on a different level to us in terms of mentality.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We have a good future. We have also never won anything or even reached a final outside of England. Can you imagine us winning a final in Germany on penalties against the Germans? Teams like Italy and Germany are on a different level to us in terms of mentality.

I can actually
But not if it’s the manager picking who takes the kicks
The young generation have won world cups at their age groups
I’m sure one was via penalties
My worry is a passive manager who favours caution over variety

 

[Jurgen the German]

Chin up, haha.

Mate I was in absolute fear that England would win or else we'd be hearing about it forever.

I viewed this game through an Italian lens. Watch the first 30 minutes back. Italy were gone five minutes in.
I was hoping they somehow just lasted until half time and could regroup.
But England stood off, let them recover, have a little possession and sort themselves out.
England had Italy on the ropes but "pragmatic" Southgate's team decided to play the long game and win on points.

Then Mancini changed Italy's shape and Italy dominated.

Southgate's conservative nature meant England only used 3 subs even though they have a stacked squad that I feared would dominate in extra time.

Southgate's choice of penalty taker and letting players take a penalty cold, shows he has somehow learned nothing from 1996.

Qatar will be too hot for England. They were complaining about not having a drinks break against Croatia.

`

Why were you in fear? You support an English club after all.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I can actually
But not if it’s the manager picking who takes the kicks
The young generation have won world cups at their age groups
I’m sure one was via penalties
My worry is a passive manager who favours caution over variety

England and Tottenham are eerily similar. Have great talent but can’t get over the line. Play in white. Some over-confident/deluded fans ahem Rio Ferdinand. I feel like we have a team capable of getting close in future tournaments but can’t see us winning anything unless we are at home. We were at home this tournament for all bar one game, other teams also had to travel thousands of miles Denmark who had to traipse to Baku before playing us and we needed extra time to finish them off. We would have been more rested than other teams.