Ingerlund

[SubZero]

Only one team gets the trophy, a defeat is a defeat.

I think it was extremely telling that despite dominating the game from the start of the 2nd half, Italy (similar to what they did with Spain) never overcommitted themselves, never pushed for the winning goal, as a unit they were quite comfortable with taking it to penalties and winning it there, you can't tell me anyone in England was comfortable with the thought of going to penalties if the manager has to put up a 19 years old and make a last minute sub to rush tow players on for the penalties ..

I think there is too much focus on Saka being 19. He's more than old enough and willing enough to bask in the glory by scoring. I refuse to believe that he was forced in any way to take that penalty. Sterling otoh, who obviously wanted to be the main and sole hero of the entire tournament when there were still minutes left on the clock, chickened out when it mattered the most. Saka didn't know better and should be lauded for that, as penalties are hit-and-miss (literally), but if you're willing to take the glory you should also be willing to take the "shame". After all and in a broad sense, losing is what 98% of all teams does every year.

 

[Raziel]

I think there is too much focus on Saka being 19. He's more than old enough and willing enough to bask in the glory by scoring. I refuse to believe that he was forced in any way to take that penalty. Sterling otoh, who obviously wanted to be the main and sole hero of the entire tournament when there were still minutes left on the clock, chickened out when it mattered the most. Saka didn't know better and should be lauded for that, as penalties are hit-and-miss (literally), but if you're willing to take the glory you should also be willing to take the "shame". After all and in a broad sense, losing is what 98% of all teams does every year.

He has to be accountable for his miss, not for anything else

The manager and whoever amongst the senior players (I assume they have some input) thought this out
-There are two penalties that are most critical in most shootouts, the first (Kane took) and the 5th (Saka)

You really cannot tell me (regardless of him volunteering/whatever), that anyone thought he was the best candidate in the team for the likely decisive penalty of the game.

This comes back down to management/coaching/preparation, said it before, Italy was obviously comfortable not only going to penalties in this game but any game where England seemed to be scrambling to get people on and were clearly not comfortable/wanting penalties.

 

[P.D.]

I think we have the same problem we've always had and that's no CM's who can retain and recycle possession, look at the top players like De Bruyne, Busquets, Veratti, Jorginho, Kante, Modric etc that can do that. Near enough every time we come up with against a decent team with those type of players in CM we lose and it's been that way for years. Hard work, pressing etc can only take you so far - it will win some games but eventually when you come up against quality players who can own the midfield it tends to shine through.

We're a much better team than before but still lack dominant CMs and until we get some the same thing will keep happening. World cup and euros we've had 2 great draws being in the far easier side and I don't think we'll be so lucky in the future.

 

[Raziel]

I think we have the same problem we've always had and that's no CM's who can retain and recycle possession, look at the top players like De Bruyne, Busquets, Veratti, Jorginho, Kante, Modric etc that can do that. Near enough every time we come up with against a decent team with those type of players in CM we lose and it's been that way for years. Hard work, pressing etc can only take you so far - it will win some games but eventually when you come up against quality players who can own the midfield it tends to shine through.

We're a much better team than before but still lack dominant CMs and until we get some the same thing will keep happening. World cup and euros we've had 2 great draws being in the far easier side and I don't think we'll be so lucky in the future.

Or as everyone has weaknesses

- Play to your strengths

England has a ton of young, pacey attacking midfielders and a world class finisher that are accustomed to playing week in, week out at high tempo with physicality. Take that game to the opposition vs. trying to play a conservative game (not your natural game)

 

[SubZero]

He has to be accountable for his miss, not for anything else

The manager and whoever amongst the senior players (I assume they have some input) thought this out
-There are two penalties that are most critical in most shootouts, the first (Kane took) and the 5th (Saka)

You really cannot tell me (regardless of him volunteering/whatever), that anyone thought he was the best candidate in the team for the likely decisive penalty of the game.

This comes back down to management/coaching/preparation, said it before, Italy was obviously comfortable not only going to penalties in this game but any game where England seemed to be scrambling to get people on and were clearly not comfortable/wanting penalties.

Unfortunately I cannot tell you anything about the decision process, other than my personal observations. Except that Sterling obviously thought Saka was a better choice than himself - if the senior players as you say, have an input. And every single penalty in a shootout is decisive - one way or the other. Had England scored their 5th, chances are that he would have had to take a penalty at some point anyway. And it would be "even more" (i.e. just as) decisive. One could argue that he could've fared better if he'd taken a penalty that could be a winner as opposed to not being a loser, but that's giving a shootout a narrative it doesn't really possess imho.

I cannot see where I've suggested that he should be held accountable for anything other than his miss, let alone the miss itself.

 

[parklane1]

I think there is: penalties like in hockey. Every player starts at the circle and goes one on one with the keeper. Firstly, it would benefit the offensive team (as you would mainly expect attackers to be better in these situations). A team throwing on 6 defenders to shore up will be penalized.

Secondly, it's skill. Quite literally anyone can score a penalty. And anyone can miss one. To go one-on-one is also within the spirit and purpose of the game. Penalties are not.

When i first went out to play in the States that how we decided drawn games. The rule was you started at the half way line and could only touch the ball three times before shooting.

 

[SubZero]

When i first went out to play in the States that how we decided drawn games. The rule was you started at the half way line and could only touch the ball three times before shooting.

It doesn't even have to include many rules to be entertaining and fair, perhaps you could be restricted to only moving forwards or sideways. Today's shootouts are little more than personified coin tossing.

 

[P.D.]

Or as everyone has weaknesses

- Play to your strengths

England has a ton of young, pacey attacking midfielders and a world class finisher that are accustomed to playing week in, week out at high tempo with physicality. Take that game to the opposition vs. trying to play a conservative game (not your natural game)

I think in some games that will work as you see in the league teams can out press and outfight teams in one of games but teams with top players comfortable in possession are generally able to dictate the game is played at their own speed.

Not saying you need to be tika taka 2010 Spain with 70% possession but you need to be able to retain possesion, without the ball there's not a lot you can do.

 

[Rorschach]

When i first went out to play in the States that how we decided drawn games. The rule was you started at the half way line and could only touch the ball three times before shooting.

That's interesting. So you could end up shooting from distance if you had a few loose touches. I think a better way to implement this is to put a timer on it so you have to go directly to goal, more or less, or risk not getting a shot off.

Is something like this better than penalties? Maybe but I'm not convinced it is a whole lot better.

 

[Modric THFC]

Or as everyone has weaknesses

- Play to your strengths

England has a ton of young, pacey attacking midfielders and a world class finisher that are accustomed to playing week in, week out at high tempo with physicality. Take that game to the opposition vs. trying to play a conservative game (not your natural game)

International tournaments are played in a compressed number of days usually in hot weather.
If England try to play anything but a possession game in Qatar, the German Euros or USA Mexico World Cup they have no chance.

They were complaining there was no water break in London for the Croatia game ffs.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think there is too much focus on Saka being 19. He's more than old enough and willing enough to bask in the glory by scoring. I refuse to believe that he was forced in any way to take that penalty. Sterling otoh, who obviously wanted to be the main and sole hero of the entire tournament when there were still minutes left on the clock, chickened out when it mattered the most. Saka didn't know better and should be lauded for that, as penalties are hit-and-miss (literally), but if you're willing to take the glory you should also be willing to take the "shame". After all and in a broad sense, losing is what 98% of all teams does every year.

What makes you say that happened, and what makes you believe he wasn't? Sorry, the battering this kid is getting in some parts here is fudging embarrassing.

 

[milo]

Unfortunately I cannot tell you anything about the decision process, other than my personal observations. Except that Sterling obviously thought Saka was a better choice than himself - if the senior players as you say, have an input. And every single penalty in a shootout is decisive - one way or the other. Had England scored their 5th, chances are that he would have had to take a penalty at some point anyway. And it would be "even more" (i.e. just as) decisive. One could argue that he could've fared better if he'd taken a penalty that could be a winner as opposed to not being a loser, but that's giving a shootout a narrative it doesn't really possess imho.

I cannot see where I've suggested that he should be held accountable for anything other than his miss, let alone the miss itself.

Southgate has been clear on the reason for choosing the penalty takers he did. It was based on their record and how they had been doing in training. Outside of Kane, Rashford and Sancho we don't have any players who regularly take penalties for their clubs. Saka has shown incredible strength during this tournament and has been one of England's stand out performers. I would imagine that he has been similarly impressive in training. Sterling doesn't have a good penalty record, 2 out of 4 for club and country.

This is the penalty record of the England team prior to Sunday's shootout

 

[Lemonade Money]

Southgate has been clear on the reason for choosing the penalty takers he did. It was based on their record and how they had been doing in training. Outside of Kane, Rashford and Sancho we don't have any players who regularly take penalties for their clubs. Saka has shown incredible strength during this tournament and has been one of England's stand out performers. I would imagine that he has been similarly impressive in training. Sterling doesn't have a good penalty record, 2 out of 4 for club and country.

This is the penalty record of the England team prior to Sunday's shootout

Christ! His first pen for club or country is a Euros Final sudden death!!! Based on that table, you could make a case for anyone but him.

 

[SubZero]

What makes you say that happened, and what makes you believe he wasn't? Sorry, the battering this kid is getting in some parts here is fudging embarrassing.

Wow, I don't even know where to start. But of all the posts criticizing Sterling, you chose this one. Ok. You call Sterling, a year younger than Kane, a kid - as he is the only one I have "battered". Also ok. I stand by my assumption that some players looks to be more eager to score/impress than to win. I would call Sterling one of them, when you time and time and time again choose the hardest option rather than passing the ball. In several cases to Kane, who albeit a "6-season wonder" is a proven goal threat and the main attacker. If you find this notion "fudging embarrasing", that's entirely up to you. But enough of that.

What makes me say that I think Saka chose to take a penalty, is that if a player don't want to take one because he feels he's not up to it - or not "old enough", only an idiot would make him take one anyway. I don't think Southgate is an idiot. From that, I deduct that Saka volunteered, and both Southgate and the players who against their better judgment didn't take a penalty, let him. Including those who may be at least one of: 1. more suited. 2. older and more experienced. 3. aware of the fact that Saka has not taken a penalty neither for club nor country. And again, at 19 you're old enough to vote. You're old enough to drive a car and have kids. You're old enough to bank millions upon millions by playing football. I'm more impressed by even playing for your country in front of gazillions than kicking a ball from 12 yards, as kicking a ball is what I consider a significant part of football and players at international level should have at least some basic training at it. But then again, I'm quite easily impressed. And you're old enough to be a hero by scoring in a shootout. Still, when you take a penalty, from what I would assume not dragged by the ears kicking and screaming, there's a possibility that you may miss. Not only can you hit badly, but there's often a top class keeper doing everything in his power to stop you from scoring. A footballer should be aware of this. Two inches to the right and Rashford would be a hero. If Saka was indeed forced against his will, then I would say that Gareth is not a very nice man.

Finally, at no point have I slated Saka for missing the penalty. At no point have I ever slated anyone for missing a penalty, as long as it's not due to arrogance, lack of concentration, stupid run-ups or a combination of those. I've simply stated that 19 is not too young to take one. And that missing a penalty is just as much a part of the game as scoring one. Someone has to miss - if that wasn't the case, history's first shootout would still be ongoing. If, for arguments sake say Grealish, had taken the penalty and scored, would Saka be old enough to take no. 6? Or 7? Or any of them except the 11th and last one, that I would presume Pickford would have taken? Would any of those penalties have involved less pressure? Would he be let off this huge task with a written note from his mum?

 

[Rorschach]

Southgate has been clear on the reason for choosing the penalty takers he did. It was based on their record and how they had been doing in training. Outside of Kane, Rashford and Sancho we don't have any players who regularly take penalties for their clubs. Saka has shown incredible strength during this tournament and has been one of England's stand out performers. I would imagine that he has been similarly impressive in training. Sterling doesn't have a good penalty record, 2 out of 4 for club and country.

This is the penalty record of the England team prior to Sunday's shootout

Interesting. I think Rashford then should have been the 5th pen taker.

 

[SubZero]

Southgate has been clear on the reason for choosing the penalty takers he did. It was based on their record and how they had been doing in training. Outside of Kane, Rashford and Sancho we don't have any players who regularly take penalties for their clubs. Saka has shown incredible strength during this tournament and has been one of England's stand out performers. I would imagine that he has been similarly impressive in training. Sterling doesn't have a good penalty record, 2 out of 4 for club and country.

This is the penalty record of the England team prior to Sunday's shootout

It may very well be due to my barely adequate English, but I fail to see a great disparity with what I said and that table. And I would personally argue both that 2/4 is better than 0/0, and secondly that such a small data set is of little value when "the heat is on". Experience on a big stage should matter a lot more, and consequently why players like Sterling should be ahead in the order. Unless Saka volunteered and Sterling let him.

 

[Seedy Ron]

Interesting. I think Rashford then should have been the 5th pen taker.

Problem with that is if you've already lost before he gets to take, you've wasted one of your more experienced takers. Portugal did that with Ronaldo once as I recall.

I criticised Southgate on the night for sending Saka up last, but thinking about it more I can see the sense in sending them in best-bet order.

 

[Rorschach]

Problem with that is if you've already lost before he gets to take, you've wasted one of your more experienced takers. Portugal did that with Ronaldo once as I recall.

I criticised Southgate on the night for sending Saka up last, but thinking about it more I can see the sense in sending them in best-bet order.

Fair point. It is far easier to pick the order in hindsight. I still think Saka at the end was a miscalculation but looking at the list Milo posted, options were limited.

 

[P.D.]

I still really detest the stuttering run ups that seem to be the fashion now, I know it's easier said than done but if a goalie can stand up to the last minute and put some doubt in the players mind then players will often wait at the end of their run up hoping for the goalie to move by which point they can't get any power on the strike.

Lampard made a good point that in training players nearly always score those penalties but in the pressure of a shoot out you seem them missed a lot more.

Personally I think you pick your spot and smash it.

 

[parklane1]

That's interesting. So you could end up shooting from distance if you had a few loose touches. I think a better way to implement this is to put a timer on it so you have to go directly to goal, more or less, or risk not getting a shot off.

Is something like this better than penalties? Maybe but I'm not convinced it is a whole lot better.

Its because the Yanks did not like drawn games so they came up with this idea, they did also mess around with the timer idea for a while. To be honest i am not sure what they do now ( it was in the late 70s early 80s when i played there).

It was a bit of a circus really we had elephants ( Pele came out on one before the game), cheer leaders girls, fireworks the lot, they really threw everything at it. Another thing they tried was a ref in each half of the field ( that went down well)