Harry Winks

[elltrev]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492915046955036677

I think there's a serious case of outcome bias for every goal we concede - lots of people point out every imperfection in the build-up as if they're each a terrible mistake. Personally, I think letting Neves shoot from that distance and angle is not a big deal - maybe it's even desirable - and if Hugo doesn't fudge up twice then there's no way anyone is mentioning a lack of closing down after the game.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think some of that is down to the narrative of goals conceded when skipp is in and winks is out.
Not a fair comparison in my opinion.
Peh v skipp, yes.
Other than skip that whole area is misfunctioning in my opinion.

its not in my opinion
It’s singling our certain players as spacegoats
We had it with Dier for so long and winks even when they didn’t play
Our two best performances have been when winks has played… pool and Leicester and yet it wasn’t because of him. It was because in those two games we owned the midfield and won those battles.
The last two games we were weak across every part of the pitch because we were outnumbered in key areas and also outworked

 

[DubSpur]

I think there's a serious case of outcome bias for every goal we concede - lots of people point out every imperfection in the build-up as if they're each a terrible mistake. Personally, I think letting Neves shoot from that distance and angle is not a big deal - maybe it's even desirable - and if Hugo doesn't fudge up twice then there's no way anyone is mentioning a lack of closing down after the game.

I'd be more concerned about the likes of Moura not tracking the Wolves players that moved into the box looking for a rebound as the shot was taken than Winks allowing the shot.
The odds of scoring directly from that area are really low.

 

[Bishop]

I'd be more concerned about the likes of Moura not tracking the Wolves players that moved into the box looking for a rebound as the shot was taken than Winks allowing the shot.
The odds of scoring directly from that area are really low.

Moira is playing as an attacker it's not overtly his responsibility to tracks runs all the way back into our box. If he did so, when we do win it back he'll be too deep and put of attacking position. There are two lines of player behind him who should in principle deal with the runs; Midfield and then the defense. Especially when you consider we actually have an extra 2 defenders out in the wide positions

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[glasgowspur]

I'd be more concerned about the likes of Moura not tracking the Wolves players that moved into the box looking for a rebound as the shot was taken than Winks allowing the shot.
The odds of scoring directly from that area are really low.

If winks isn't blocking the shot or following it in what is he doing?
Not particularly having a go at winks because they are all doing it, as i have been saying since the scbc game what do we do around the 18 yard lines? Its like we become statues.

 

[glasgowspur]

its not in my opinion
It’s singling our certain players as spacegoats
We had it with Dier for so long and winks even when they didn’t play
Our two best performances have been when winks has played… pool and Leicester and yet it wasn’t because of him. It was because in those two games we owned the midfield and won those battles.
The last two games we were weak across every part of the pitch because we were outnumbered in key areas and also outworked

Ge hasn't covered himself in glory defensively, but who has.
He's done ok when his defensive responsibility has been less, and that is more the role he is suited to imho.
I find it difficult to judge anyone at the moment, we are such a mess.
There's always two things i keep coming back to, there's an issue in the dressing room, we are cowards.
No one will perform well under those circumstances.
We need a clear out.

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Nah we should
But it’s being pinned on winks it seems
It’s fudging odd IMO
The same players are the spacegoats even if it’s nothing to do with them
I’m still amazed it’s not diers fault… although it kinda is as his injury has cost us

It’s not all about blaming winks, I agree that he can’t be blamed for the defensive errors.
But I do think there’s a lot of truth to the old adage that the game is lost or won in midfield, and that winks doesn’t contribute enough defensively or offensively and the passing stats flatter him. Agree with your point about the lack of movement tho, that’s been an issue for a long time now, and without adequate movement what has winks got to pass to?

 

[Bishop]

Ge hasn't covered himself in glory defensively, but who has.
He's done ok when his defensive responsibility has been less, and that is more the role he is suited to imho.
I find it difficult to judge anyone at the moment, we are such a mess.
There's always two things i keep coming back to, there's an issue in the dressing room, we are cowards.
No one will perform well under those circumstances.
We need a clear out.

It's not even that complicated, our midfield is just trash and has been for years. Of course they can't perform well, they have no ability to do so. [emoji1787]

But yes a clear out is necessary. It's why quite a few of us were really hoping for at least a couple of CM incomings because what we have is just painful to watch. They can barely do the basics and excel at absolutely nothing. There's no pairing that makes a complete player. [emoji31]

Burn them all with fire. [emoji28]

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[Gazza Dazzla]

We need a clear out.

another one?

A quick scan of transfer market shows since the CL final we have spent 350M (250M net) and over 40 ins and outs.

We need stop tinkling money up the wall on crap and have a proper scouting network. Hoping that’s what Paratici has started overhauling.

 

[braineclipse]

If we go with a midfield three that would allow Winks to play arguably his best role as the deepest of the three. If he keeps his place if Skipp is back is another question.

 

[glasgowspur]

another one?

A quick scan of transfer market shows since the CL final we have spent 350M (250M net) and over 40 ins and outs.

We need stop tinkling money up the wall on crap and have a proper scouting network. Hoping that’s what Paratici has started overhauling.

We're obviously clearing out the wrong ones.
Yes, we do need better coming in.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It’s not all about blaming winks, I agree that he can’t be blamed for the defensive errors.
But I do think there’s a lot of truth to the old adage that the game is lost or won in midfield, and that winks doesn’t contribute enough defensively or offensively and the passing stats flatter him. Agree with your point about the lack of movement tho, that’s been an issue for a long time now, and without adequate movement what has winks got to pass to?

As I said above our three best performances under Conte had winks playing CM… and that’s with us knowing his limitations
But we need to firstly boss and own the midfield. You ain’t doing that with a 2 vs a 3… it’s what killed us on Sunday and vs SCBC it was the overloads from their midfield and their movement in attack

 

[DubSpur]

Moira is playing as an attacker it's not overtly his responsibility to tracks runs all the way back into our box. If he did so, when we do win it back he'll be too deep and put of attacking position. There are two lines of player behind him who should in principle deal with the runs; Midfield and then the defense. Especially when you consider we actually have an extra 2 defenders out in the wide positions

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It's the responsibility of everyone of the players that were in a line along the edge of the box. I used Moura as an example because at the start of the clip one of the Wolves players was standing beside him and started a run into the box and was the one that got on the end of the first fumble from Lloris. If Moura had've gone with him and challenged then the goal most likely doesn't happen.

Don't get me wrong, Winks didn't cover himself in glory, he stood there doing nothing, like all the players on the edge of the box.

 

[Bishop]

It's the responsibility of everyone of the players that were in a line along the edge of the box. I used Moura as an example because at the start of the clip one of the Wolves players was standing beside him and started a run into the box and was the one that got on the end of the first fumble from Lloris. If Moura had've gone with him and challenged then the goal most likely doesn't happen.

Don't get me wrong, Winks didn't cover himself in glory, he stood there doing nothing, like all the players on the edge of the box.

Part of the issue for me is that correct Kane and Moura are two of the deeper ppl players in that line behind all of the midfielders and presumably the WBs. Now sure it's a team game and everyone should contribute, but it should be the midfielders and defenders who are tracking runs into the box not the forwards. If Moura had indeed tracked the run and even stopped the shot it would have still been a systemic error that the forward is defending when the midfielders and defenders are some positioned outside the box and not reacting. Kane and Moura are positioned for the counter, if they follow the ball deep into the box especially in this situation when we weren't overloaded relative to how many players we had in the general vicinity then the counter isn't possible.

Although this is the Winks thread I'm not directly blaming him just pointing out that it should be and is the midfield's and defence's responsibility for tracking runs of this sort. If Wolves were camped on our half with 6 plus players in and around our box then 100% Moura should track the run, but that wasn't the case.

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[DubSpur]

Part of the issue for me is that correct Kane and Moura are two of the deeper ppl players in that line behind all of the midfielders and presumably the WBs. Now sure it's a team game and everyone should contribute, but it should be the midfielders and defenders who are tracking runs into the box not the forwards. If Moura had indeed tracked the run and even stopped the shot it would have still been a systemic error that the forward is defending when the midfielders and defenders are some positioned outside the box and not reacting. Kane and Moura are positioned for the counter, if they follow the ball deep into the box especially in this situation when we weren't overloaded relative to how many players we had in the general vicinity then the counter isn't possible.

Although this is the Winks thread I'm not directly blaming him just pointing out that it should be and is the midfield's and defence's responsibility for tracking runs of this sort. If Wolves were camped on our half with 6 plus players in and around our box then 100% Moura should track the run, but that wasn't the case.

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We were overloaded in the box. There were 5 Wolves players in the box and three defenders. Bentancur makes a lazy and late attempt to get back in to help, the others do nothing. At that stage I don't give a fudge if you're a forward, the first priority is to help the defence, get back in and stop the goal.

 

[Bishop]

We were overloaded in the box. There were 5 Wolves players in the box and three defenders. Bentancur makes a lazy and late attempt to get back in to help, the others do nothing. At that stage I don't give a fudge if you're a forward, the first priority is to help the defence, get back in and stop the goal.

Yes overloaded because the defenders and midfielders didn't track the runs in the first place but not overloaded due to them camping in our half. If you move Winks and Bentancur into the box and shift Doherty to wider side all of a sudden we aren't overloaded. Moura then doesn't need to follow Jimenez into the box. He's a strikers it's a ridiculous situation that one our our "strikers" should be picking up the opposition striker in our own box yet our midfielders are outside of it. Goals like the one we conceded will happen every week if we purposely set up to play that way. I know that's not what you're saying, but do you see the failure in the system if that's the case?

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[DubSpur]

Yes overloaded because the defenders and midfielders didn't track the runs in the first place but not overloaded due to them camping in our half. If you move Winks and Bentancur into the box and shift Doherty to wider side all of a sudden we aren't overloaded. Moura then doesn't need to follow Jimenez into the box. He's a strikers it's a ridiculous situation that one our our "strikers" should be picking up the opposition striker in our own box yet our midfielders are outside of it. Goals like the one we conceded will happen every week if we purposely set up to play that way. I know that's not what you're saying, but do you see the failure in the system if that's the case?

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The situation came from a freekick. The initial ball in was cleared to just outside the box and then the shot happened leading to the goal.
It's nothing got to do with the overall system, it's defending a setpiece and the follow on from that.
In that situation forwards have as much responsibility to stay with their man as defenders and midfielders.
Moura started alongside Dendocker but let him go and he went into the box unmarked.

I'm not saying Moura was the biggest culprit, that was obviously Lloris. My main point is it wasn't just a failing on Winks not closing down.
If others had done their job then the goal wouldn't have happened.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The situation came from a freekick. The initial ball in was cleared to just outside the box and then the shot happened leading to the goal.
It's nothing got to do with the overall system, it's defending a setpiece and the follow on from that.
In that situation forwards have as much responsibility to stay with their man as defenders and midfielders.
Moura started alongside Dendocker but let him go and he went into the box unmarked.

I'm not saying Moura was the biggest culprit, that was obviously Lloris. My main point is it wasn't just a failing on Winks not closing down.
If others had done their job then the goal wouldn't have happened.

From neves shot to the ball go in was 5 seconds
In that time the ball bounced around loads too
But at NO time did anyone in a spurs shirt look like they were in charge of the situation
That’s what’s so frustrating
We need players to “put a name on it”
Make others accountable
Tell their teams mates what to do
We seems such a quiet side on the pitch

 

[Junior19]

The situation came from a freekick. The initial ball in was cleared to just outside the box and then the shot happened leading to the goal.
It's nothing got to do with the overall system, it's defending a setpiece and the follow on from that.
In that situation forwards have as much responsibility to stay with their man as defenders and midfielders.
Moura started alongside Dendocker but let him go and he went into the box unmarked.

I'm not saying Moura was the biggest culprit, that was obviously Lloris. My main point is it wasn't just a failing on Winks not closing down.
If others had done their job then the goal wouldn't have happened.

True. Very few goals are down to one single mistake alone, unless it is the goalkeeper or central defender making a howler that you cannot recover from.
Usually they are a compound of several mistakes, each in it self "repairable", but in sum unrecoverable. Even Davies stupid slip could/should have been recovered, but since that came on top of the initial mistake, the compounded result was too much to handle. And in the end, his mistake gets the blame. (Don't get me wrong, he clearly deserves a huge bit of blame on that one, and I'm quite certain he would be the first to acknowledge that!).

The main difference between a team in the flow, and a team in our deep brick, is that when you have your tails up, high spirit and high belief, you don't let one mistake lead to another. You break the chain before it becomes a problem. In the other scenario, a mistake increases the chance of a second mistake, due to poor confidence, poor judgement because of poor confidence, and just because "bad luck breeds bad luck."

We're so determined to find spacegoats (and heroes, for that matter) that we're more focused on who touched the ball last than what caused the situation. While if we really want to understand how to stop it from happening (or recreate it, in case of the hero) we need to see the root cause, not the spacegoat (hero)!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

True. Very few goals are down to one single mistake alone, unless it is the goalkeeper or central defender making a howler that you cannot recover from.
Usually they are a compound of several mistakes, each in it self "repairable", but in sum unrecoverable. Even Davies stupid slip could/should have been recovered, but since that came on top of the initial mistake, the compounded result was too much to handle. And in the end, his mistake gets the blame. (Don't get me wrong, he clearly deserves a huge bit of blame on that one, and I'm quite certain he would be the first to acknowledge that!).

The main difference between a team in the flow, and a team in our deep brick, is that when you have your tails up, high spirit and high belief, you don't let one mistake lead to another. You break the chain before it becomes a problem. In the other scenario, a mistake increases the chance of a second mistake, due to poor confidence, poor judgement because of poor confidence, and just because "bad luck breeds bad luck."

We're so determined to find spacegoats (and heroes, for that matter) that we're more focused on who touched the ball last than what caused the situation. While if we really want to understand how to stop it from happening (or recreate it, in case of the hero) we need to see the root cause, not the spacegoat (hero)!

Bingo
We love as a club to focus on the individual rather than the collective issues
Even contes doing it by washing his hands with some of the issues