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Harry Kane MBE

Raziel said:
Talksport (ignore the source) had a retired striker a few months back as a guest and this topic came up, and they tried to push the Kane scenario, i.e. would you trade team honors (e.g. win PL or be top scorer in PL history).

The response was no doubt individual, even highlighted that as a striker it's probably even less of a team game, despite re-asking several times, the guy wouldn't budge, individual honors every time.

Of course, if that's Kane view, none of us know, but .. everyone knows Shearer is the top goalscorer in PL history, you could probably name 10 players who have won the PL that no one has any idea of who they are.
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I reckon you could get closer to 100 than 10 obscure title winners.
 
harr1984 said:
I kind of agree with this, but still think it's a chicken and egg situation really. I mean I know Shearer won the league with Blackburn but I don't really remember him doing that (granted partly because it was such a long time ago) and remember him way more for his outstanding goals and the sheer rate he scored at.

Kane is just such a strange example, because someone like him operating at the consistent top level of the game he does constantly putting in the numbers he does and winning nothing is just unheard of. Usually the top players at some stage of their career are winning tournaments, the only guy I personally can think of who did similar is Le Tissier who was a class act and didn't win anything - but even he was not at kane's level in terms of consistent output.

But anyone trying to put down how good Kane is down to him not lifting a trophy is talking utter gonads - you could put Haaland or De Bryne in the Spurs team and they would win nothing. Or put Kane in the City team and he would win plenty - would him doing that magically make him a better player? I think not.....
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Shearer was fortunate enough to have won the PL relatively early on so that removed that whole narrative from his discussion. The majority of his career was framed by this so he was pretty much already seen as being a winner.

With Kane if he had, had the exact same career but at another side I don't think it would get brought up as much, but because he plays for Spurs the great underachievers it's an easy if lazy narrative but one that does have some merit.

The only person who can truly speak about whether Kane's career achievements have been disappointing or not is himself. He will know deep down how he feels. I'd argue that up to this point it's not been his biggest drive otherwise he would have tried to leave earlier.

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I was going to mention Shearer and Le Tissier, but harr1984 beat me to it. The problem with saying "oh, what about..." is that one or two extreme examples do not make a rule.

That said, great goalscorers are remembered regardless of how many trophies they've won. They transcend it. Sure, if you're going to score 50 or 60 goals over a fruitful Premier League career, you're going to want to retire with some silverware listed on your Wikipedia page. But if you've scored 100+, you'll not be forgotten.

It's different for goalkeepers, defenders and midfielders -- these are team players whose individual stats are hard to pin down. Sure, you've got clean sheets, assists, etc., but for them it's more likely to be team trophies that are the tangible reward. Strikers, however, are measured by their goals.

The following players have scored between 100 and 110 Prem goals:

Emile Heskey 110
Ryan Giggs 109
Peter Crouch 108
Paul Scholes 107
Darren Bent 106
Didier Drogba 104
Cristiano Ronaldo 103
Son Heung-min 103
Matt Le Tissier 100

Some of those (Giggs, Scholes, Drogba, Ronaldo) are great players by any metric, with suitably bulging trophy cabinets. But the others...well, I'm pretty sure Crouchy would have a good laugh if you suggested that his FA Cup and Community Shield put him anywhere near the same bracket as Harry Kane. Players of the calibre of Sonny and Le Tissier will be remembered regardless.

And Darren Bent can **** right off.
 
Mikey10 said:
Although I think he’ll be here next season, I think that tweet puts quite a positive spin on what he actually said.
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Agreed. Essentially he's criticizing the culture of the club and the lack of success, albeit in a slightly more PR friendly way than someone else who did the same recently!

I'll be astounded if he signs another contract here but I don't doubt he'll try his upmost to make next season a great one. We have tried every which way to go about it so I don't blame him.
 
spurspinter1 said:
Agreed. Essentially he's criticizing the culture of the club and the lack of success, albeit in a slightly more PR friendly way than someone else who did the same recently!

I'll be astounded if he signs another contract here but I don't doubt he'll try his upmost to make next season a great one. We have tried every which way to go about it so I don't blame him.
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And I don’t think anyone can begrudge him taking charge of his own destiny
 
Bishop said:
Players tend to be remembered as great via their achievements and accolades. A combination of the invisible and the team. I don't think you can really speak for many legends of the game who have been remembered without winning something important and contributing in the process.

The individual triumphs are more like garnishes to an already successful career which by most standards looked via the prism of club success ultimately.



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Interesting viewpoint and discussion.

Personally I see the cups as the icing on the cake and the individual honours as the indication of how great you are as a player. In other words Kane has shown repeatedly how much better he is than his peers.
 
RunTMC said:
Interesting viewpoint and discussion.

Personally I see the cups as the icing on the cake and the individual honours as the indication of how great you are as a player. In other words Kane has shown repeatedly how much better he is than his peers.
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Kane's place in the pantheon of greats is undoubtedly affected by his lack of club success. Football is ultimately a team game and thus a player's success or lack thereof is based on the team's success. No player can achieve without their team, but likewise very few players have been considered true greats without that team success. Kane is one of them, but without that team success how highly he will be placed is capped.

Kane with the same exact numbers and performances would be held higher in the pantheon if he had won the CL in 19, the League in 17 and maybe an FA Cup somewhere on that timeline. Fans have traditionally wanted those great performances and numbers to mean something substantial beyond just the raw numbers themselves.

I'm not saying that's fair but it's traditionally how players have been judged historically. Zidane is heralded but no one really remembers This Costa as an example. In the same way that the player who has tended to be considered the best at a WC is a player usually on the winning team, likewise the player of the CL is typically again from the winning side. It's correlation rather direct causation but it is the way things have been seen.

The great players have tended to win things, it's the proof of their greatness to an extent. Kane is a great, but without a trophy to his name his greatness can always be asterisked sadly.

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Bishop said:
Kane's place in the pantheon of greats is undoubtedly affected by his lack of club success. Football is ultimately a team game and thus a player's success or lack thereof is based on the team's success. No player can achieve without their team, but likewise very few players have been considered true greats without that team success. Kane is one of them, but without that team success how highly he will be placed is capped.

Kane with the same exact numbers and performances would be held higher in the pantheon if he had won the CL in 19, the League in 17 and maybe an FA Cup somewhere on that timeline. Fans have traditionally wanted those great performances and numbers to mean something substantial beyond just the raw numbers themselves.

I'm not saying that's fair but it's traditionally how players have been judged historically. Zidane is heralded but no one really remembers This Costa as an example. In the same way that the player who has tended to be considered the best at a WC is a player usually on the winning team, likewise the player of the CL is typically again from the winning side. It's correlation rather direct causation but it is the way things have been seen.

The great players have tended to win things, it's the proof of their greatness to an extent. Kane is a great, but without a trophy to his name his greatness can always be asterisked sadly.

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I see the perspective, but not 100% bought in

The problem at Spurs is not only the lack of success, but lack of media hype around the club, I am quite sure if Kane went to United and did two 30+ goals a season years and won nothing, there would not be a single media conversation about "if" he was world class

It's the same with the Arsenal example, if they fudge up the title this year, like they fudged up 4th last year, somehow the media doesn't think that is bottling it. If Spurs did exactly the same thing? can you imagine Spurs having the most points of any club at mid point in a PL season and not converting? the narrative?

And yes people will asterisk brick, but it's flimflam. There were a significant amount of people that questioned Messi pre the last year because Argentina had won neither the Copa or WC with him. Now that asterisk is gone, but does that really change the player Messi is/was and his place in the games greats?
 
Steve Bull was a fantastic striker, stayed at Wolves for 13 seasons in the lower divisions but he’ll be remembered for a long time.

100 goals for them in just over two years.
 
Raziel said:
I see the perspective, but not 100% bought in

The problem at Spurs is not only the lack of success, but lack of media hype around the club, I am quite sure if Kane went to United and did two 30+ goals a season years and won nothing, there would not be a single media conversation about "if" he was world class

It's the same with the Arsenal example, if they fudge up the title this year, like they fudged up 4th last year, somehow the media doesn't think that is bottling it. If Spurs did exactly the same thing? can you imagine Spurs having the most points of any club at mid point in a PL season and not converting? the narrative?

And yes people will asterisk brick, but it's flimflam. There were a significant amount of people that questioned Messi pre the last year because Argentina had won neither the Copa or WC with him. Now that asterisk is gone, but does that really change the player Messi is/was and his place in the games greats?
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I largely agree, nothing really changed. Messi was a Higuain missed sittter away from winning WC2014 so yes nothing really changed. However i'm just being honest with how players are revered. My example Rui Costa being one. During their careers Costa was pretty much considered Zidane's equal but sowly over the years he seems to have been forgotten about entirely. So success on the biggest stages at the clutch moments does play a part in creating a player's legend.

The funny thing about Arsenal is even on here we don't really call them out for bottling last season when it was the reason we got 4th. Instead, we tend to prefer to act as if it was all our own doing when it them losing their nerve that helped us yet we don't call them out as bottlers. Football has such strange narratives that take hold. Maradona winning the World Cup by himself being another one, Spurs bottling a league when we were never even with 5 points. But hey it is what it is, these are the narratives.

Kane is a great in my eyes, his performances, his numbers, the way hes had this club on shoulders at times all show this yet even still i know that his place on the pantheon is limited by his lack of title clinching goals. The thing with your example is sadly its more about Spurs because if Kane had 30+ goal seasons at United he probably have won something even the League cup as they have this season.
 
I have been desperate for England to do well and win tournaments, just so that Kane gets the trophies that he deserves
He was a rashford/sancho/saka penalty away from wining the Euros
And probably a Kane penalty away from winning the worldcup (assumption here is England would have overcome both Morocco and Argentina in finals.)
 
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