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ENIC

Lilbaz said:
We were the record holders of the facup for 2 years. We lost that record well before enic took over.
We were the only club in london to win aeuropean trophy till arsenal won the fairs cup in 1969. Again well before enic.
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You'll note the 'of note' in that - I don't count the Fairs Cup, or the Intertoto Cup in that. Former because it wasn't a UEFA competition, latter because..well, it's the Intertoto Cup.

Re: FA Cup, perhaps, but had we won them at the same rate as the period from 1961 to 1991, we would have regained that crown, and comfortably retained it afterward. That we have not won any since '91 is why we couldn't keep that title long term.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Perhaps if two doped up previous arsewipe yo yo teams hadn't turned up we might of picked up 1 or more of the 30 odd trophies they've hoovered up?
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Sure, no argument there. And if we had been the ones receiving investment in that time (from any source), we would have been the ones winning some of those, instead of the racist arsewipes or the Manc arsewipes.

We got ENIC instead. Paths did diverge there.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Sure, no argument there. And if we had been the ones receiving investment in that time (from any source), we would have been the ones winning some of those, instead of the racist arsewipes or the Manc arsewipes.

We got ENIC instead. Paths did diverge there.
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Possibly, it depends on the level required if we're saying the Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project 'experiments' still happened?

Let's be honest if football had continued being 'normal' , it would be Man U Liverpool Arsenal and Us as a clear top 4.

Chelsea Emirates Marketing Project et al were never going to climb the mountain, they needed a helicopter.
 
DubaiSpur said:
You'll note the 'of note' in that - I don't count the Fairs Cup, or the Intertoto Cup in that. Former because it wasn't a UEFA competition, latter because..well, it's the Intertoto Cup.

Re: FA Cup, perhaps, but had we won them at the same rate as the period from 1961 to 1991, we would have regained that crown, and comfortably retained it afterward. That we have not won any since '91 is why we couldn't keep that title long term.
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The fairs cup was the predecessor of the uefa cup. Even if you don't count it arsenal won the cup winners cup way before enic took over us. Chelsea won it in 71.

You're grasping at straws and sound like a spoilt child.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Possibly, it depends on the level required if we're saying the Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project 'experiments' still happened?

Let's be honest if football had continued being 'normal' , it would be Man U Liverpool Arsenal and Us as a clear top 4.

Chelsea Emirates Marketing Project et al were never going to climb the mountain, they needed a helicopter.
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'If football had continued as normal' is the key assumption here. If football had continued as it were in 2001, ENIC's 20-year plan might have worked out.

But Abramovich coming in in 2003 immediately outmoded that, just two years into their ownership. Chelsea 'took our spot'. And then City coming in in 2008 blew ENIC's model out of the water. FSG in 2011 pulled the rug from under ENIC by poaching our backroom staff and football model. And then a rush of wealthy owners entering the league ruined ENIC's ability to parlay CL qualification into transfer heft, because these owners could just say no to any CL funded bids we made for their players.

I don't disagree that, had everything worked out with on changes for 20 years, ENIC would probably have been in a different place, as would we.

But they were utterly outmoded and outcompeted basically immediately. And we have been burdened with owners from 2001, in the year 2023 - in scale, in ambition, in business savvy, ENIC have been left adrift by the arrival of owners who dwarf them in all of these.

We need to cut them loose if we want to compete again, mate. Everything else is just rearranging the seats on a bus - might make it look prettier, but the routine doesn't change.
 
DubaiSpur said:
'If football had continued as normal' is the key assumption here. If football had continued as it were in 2001, ENIC's 20-year plan might have worked out.

But Abramovich coming in in 2003 immediately outmoded that, just two years into their ownership. Chelsea 'took our spot'. And then City coming in in 2008 blew ENIC's model out of the water. FSG in 2011 pulled the rug from under ENIC by poaching our backroom staff and football model. And then a rush of wealthy owners entering the league ruined ENIC's ability to parlay CL qualification into transfer heft, because these owners could just say no to any CL funded bids we made for their players.

I don't disagree that, had everything worked out with on changes for 20 years, ENIC would probably have been in a different place, as would we.

But they were utterly outmoded and outcompeted basically immediately. And we have been burdened with owners from 2001, in the year 2023 - in scale, in ambition, in business savvy, ENIC have been left adrift by the arrival of owners who dwarf them in all of these.

We need to cut them loose if we want to compete again, mate. Everything else is just rearranging the seats on a bus - might make it look prettier, but the routine doesn't change.
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Get the £4b together and it’s yours
 
Lilbaz said:
The fairs cup was the predecessor of the uefa cup. Even if you don't count it arsenal won the cup winners cup way before enic took over us. Chelsea won it in 71.

You're grasping at straws and sound like a spoilt child.
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Riiiight. Well, let me rephrase - we won one of the two major European trophies before either one of those two did.

As for the 'spoilt child' nonsense, hooray, one League Cup in 23 years, truly our cup runneth over.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Get the £4b together and it’s yours
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Ha! In all seriousness mate, say there was some sort of crowdfunding campaign to buy a small-ish stake in the club (or at least, offer to buy a stake in the club) on behalf of the fans - would you be interested in it? And if so -

a) what safeguards would you want to see in terms of the funding? And

b) whom would you want to see holding the shares on our behalf?

Genuinely keen to hear your opinion. It's something I've thought about, on and off, for a while.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Ha! In all seriousness mate, say there was some sort of crowdfunding campaign to buy a small-ish stake in the club (or at least, offer to buy a stake in the club) on behalf of the fans - would you be interested in it? And if so -

a) what safeguards would you want to see in terms of the funding? And

b) whom would you want to see holding the shares on our behalf?

Genuinely keen to hear your opinion. It's something I've thought about, on and off, for a while.
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I’m lucky in that I’m a high earner so for me it would be a high risk investment
I wouldn’t necessarily need to see a return
But say I was happy to put in £10k …. That’s a small stake in reality
You would need 400,000 likewise people
The people who actually what the change are generally people who IMO couldn’t afford to gamble £10k. And it is a gamble
I think football club values are an absolute joke as the biggest value is goodwill in all these things …
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I’m lucky in that I’m a high earner so for me it would be a high risk investment
I wouldn’t necessarily need to see a return
But say I was happy to put in £10k …. That’s a small stake in reality
You would need 400,000 likewise people
The people who actually what the change are generally people who IMO couldn’t afford to gamble £10k. And it is a gamble
I think football club values are an absolute joke as the biggest value is goodwill in all these things …
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You would also need another 500m minimum ontop of the purchase to appease the banks and have any deal ratified and deal with day to day cash flow

Fans don't even turn up for protests, good luck getting another 10k out of them

Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I’m lucky in that I’m a high earner so for me it would be a high risk investment
I wouldn’t necessarily need to see a return
But say I was happy to put in £10k …. That’s a small stake in reality
You would need 400,000 likewise people
The people who actually what the change are generally people who IMO couldn’t afford to gamble £10k. And it is a gamble
I think football club values are an absolute joke as the biggest value is goodwill in all these things …
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To be clear, I'm not proposing fans buy out the club at whatever ENIC values it at. I'm thinking about whether the fans would be in favour of a small stake to give us a say in club affairs - the sort of thing the fan-led review recommended.

It wouldn't need 400,000 people for that. And like you, I wouldn't mind putting in about $15k if I were satisfied that the funding wasn't being misappropriated - but I'd prefer that any shares be held by a fan trust, not an individual.

And I know how this place feels about trusts (and the THST in particular), hence my hypothetical question on what you'd be comfortable with. :)
 
DubaiSpur said:
To be clear, I'm not proposing fans buy out the club at whatever ENIC values it at. I'm thinking about whether the fans would be in favour of a small stake to give us a say in club affairs - the sort of thing the fan-led review recommended.

It wouldn't need 400,000 people for that. And like you, I wouldn't mind putting in about $15k if I were satisfied that the funding wasn't being misappropriated - but I'd prefer that any shares be held by a fan trust, not an individual.

And I know how this place feels about trusts (and the THST in particular), hence my hypothetical question on what you'd be comfortable with. :)
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I would think thats a good idea and would work in sync with the current idea of fan reps on board. I would not want it with the trust and ideally you want to elect someone from a pool who has put into the fund and not a trust that is influenced by those that do not (and not talking £10 subs)
 
DubaiSpur said:
To be clear, I'm not proposing fans buy out the club at whatever ENIC values it at. I'm thinking about whether the fans would be in favour of a small stake to give us a say in club affairs - the sort of thing the fan-led review recommended.

It wouldn't need 400,000 people for that. And like you, I wouldn't mind putting in about $15k if I were satisfied that the funding wasn't being misappropriated - but I'd prefer that any shares be held by a fan trust, not an individual.

And I know how this place feels about trusts (and the THST in particular), hence my hypothetical question on what you'd be comfortable with. :)
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Oh I’d invest in a properly run organisation to own a stake in tbe club
The trust is not that vehicle of course
I live German football and the structure there in most clubs
 
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