ENIC

[Jurgen the German]

4.25b is what it will have cost him/them
You have to factor in the Roman debt for start

Chelsea are still a bigger club and are a much bigger global brand than Spurs. £4bn seems pie in the sky to say the least. We will be forever owned by ENIC if that’s their valuation as no one will pay that amount.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Chelsea are still a bigger club and are a much bigger global brand than Spurs. £4bn seems pie in the sky to say the least. We will be forever owned by ENIC if that’s their valuation as no one will pay that amount.

But Chelsea don’t have a Bigger fan base attending games …
And don’t have the stadium and other links
The value of those is huge to a new owner as it’s unique and unexploited
I do agree the value is bonkers but the football is bonkers too

 

[Grays_1890]

Chelsea are still a bigger club and are a much bigger global brand than Spurs. £4bn seems pie in the sky to say the least. We will be forever owned by ENIC if that’s their valuation as no one will pay that amount.

They are and that's what inflated their price despite having no asset in the ground on their books.

If we like it or not our clubs value will be made up of assets like the ground, training ground, land owned and the access to future revenue. That starts at 2bn + from then on its anyone's guess

Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk

 

[DubaiSpur]

Chelsea are still a bigger club and are a much bigger global brand than Spurs. £4bn seems pie in the sky to say the least. We will be forever owned by ENIC if that’s their valuation as no one will pay that amount.

To be clear, I liked this because of its accuracy. Being forever owned by ENIC is a ridiculously grim nightmare I would not wish on anyone, least of all my own club.

 

[Raziel]

'If football had continued as normal' is the key assumption here. If football had continued as it were in 2001, ENIC's 20-year plan might have worked out.

But Abramovich coming in in 2003 immediately outmoded that, just two years into their ownership. Chelsea 'took our spot'. And then City coming in in 2008 blew ENIC's model out of the water. FSG in 2011 pulled the rug from under ENIC by poaching our backroom staff and football model. And then a rush of wealthy owners entering the league ruined ENIC's ability to parlay CL qualification into transfer heft, because these owners could just say no to any CL funded bids we made for their players.

I don't disagree that, had everything worked out with on changes for 20 years, ENIC would probably have been in a different place, as would we.

But they were utterly outmoded and outcompeted basically immediately. And we have been burdened with owners from 2001, in the year 2023 - in scale, in ambition, in business savvy, ENIC have been left adrift by the arrival of owners who dwarf them in all of these.

We need to cut them loose if we want to compete again, mate. Everything else is just rearranging the seats on a bus - might make it look prettier, but the routine doesn't change.

This is where you get lost in your dislike for ENIC/Levy

- Yes, Chelsea and City killed our chances of truly competing for trophies under ENIC's (self sustaining) model
- No, business wise, no one in world football has competed with them, these guys bought a club for <£50M (the price of a mid tier player now) and 22 years later it's worth in excess of £3.5B- £4B with almost £1.5B in property assets.

Chelsea lost almost a £1M/week under RA's tenure, they have just spent £70M+ to have Brighton's manager for half a season and to be out of the top 10 after spending >£400M in players. That's not ambition, that's just throwing money away (and yes, unfortunately that is what it takes to compete)

We (me included) may not like the lack of trophies Levy's tenure has brought, but to say he's not good at business is completely laughable mate. If you turn <£50M into £4B, believe me when I tell you, none of the owners/investors give a rats ass if the fans are unhappy or what brick the media prints.

 

[scaramanga]

Levy has done absolutely nothing to warrant the confidence of an owner richer than him that he's the one to lead us to success.

Except hold the confidence of an owner richer than him, you mean?

Last time I checked, Lewis is significantly richer than Levy and doesn't seem to be unhappy with his stewardship.

 

[Raziel]

Except hold the confidence of an owner richer than him, you mean?

Last time I checked, Lewis is significantly richer than Levy and doesn't seem to be unhappy with his stewardship.

See my point above ..

 

[DubaiSpur]

This is where you get lost in your dislike for ENIC/Levy

- Yes, Chelsea and City killed our chances of truly competing for trophies under ENIC's (self sustaining) model
- No, business wise, no one in world football has competed with them, these guys bought a club for <£50M (the price of a mid tier player now) and 22 years later it's worth in excess of £3.5B- £4B with almost £1.5B in property assets.

Let me put it this way mate - you could have bought a Premier League club in London for 50m in 2001, done absolutely *nothing* since, and it would be worth over a billion today. The value of the club is down to a) the explosion in value of the Premier League itself in this time, and b) the new stadium, which is our owners ploughing the club's own money into infrastructure in a semi-competent way (and which every owner is now doing - West Ham, FSG, City, Brentford, even Everton and the likes of Palace. And in many cases, doing it out of their own pocket too).

It says little, imo, about the owners' nous.

Except hold the confidence of an owner richer than him, you mean?

Last time I checked, Lewis is significantly richer than Levy and doesn't seem to be unhappy with his stewardship.

>Levy has done absolutely nothing to warrant the confidence of an owner richer than him that he's the one to lead us to success.

Don't disagree that Lewis must be over the moon with his henchman for raising the value of his asset without any silverware.

I'm talking about owners for whom silverware actually matters. Believe it or not, some still want to see their clubs winning pots and pans, for differing reasons - some commercial, some personal, some political. Levy is one of the last men on Earth you want in charge of that sort of ambitious operation.

 

[Baleforce]

Let me put it this way - you could have bought a Premier League club in London for 50m in 2001, done absolutely *nothing* since, and it would be worth over a billion today. The value of the club is down to a) the explosion in value of the Premier League itself in this time, and b) the new stadium, which is our owners ploughing the club's own money into infrastructure in a semi-competent way (and which every owner is now doing - West Ham, FSG, City, Brentford, even Everton and the likes of Palace. And in many cases, doing it out of their own pocket too).

It says little, imo, about the owners' nous.



>Levy has done absolutely nothing to warrant the confidence of an owner richer than him that he's the one to lead us to success.

Don't disagree that Lewis must be over the moon with his henchman for raising the value of his asset without any silverware.

I'm talking about owners for whom silverware actually matters. Believe it or not, some still want to see their clubs winning pots and pans, for differing reasons - some commercial, some personal, some political. Levy is one of the last men on Earth you want in charge of that sort of ambitious operation.

what about all of the other PL clubs purchased in that time that are not worth anything now, aren't even in the PL?

if it's so easy, how come so many have failed and others have had to spend so much money?

also, the pots and pans, doesn't the motivation of the owner matter (it really should)?

 

[Raziel]

what about all of the other PL clubs purchased in that time that are not worth anything now, aren't even in the PL?

if it's so easy, how come so many have failed and others have had to spend so much money?

No one has done a better job (not even fudging close) but people can't admit it
- Everton, half a billion spent, zero success, in FFP problems and genuinely could go into administration if relegated
- West Ham, free stadium, zero success (one top 6 in last 16 years), and no where near Spurs as a financial machine
- Palace, in huge FFP/wages problems, blew through owners and losing money
- United, Pool & Chelsea still have to spend billions on infrastructure at the worst interest rates in 15+ years

Levy has not got us over the line on the field, but to even suggest the off field work is anything but a huge success is disingenuous

Again, fully see why people want a change, because they don't want owners that care if it's sustainable/sensible but you can admit that and still understand Levy has made the club future proofed by the off the field work.

 

[Baleforce]

No one has done a better job (not even fudging close) but people can't admit it
- Everton, half a billion spent, zero success, in FFP problems and genuinely could go into administration if relegated
- West Ham, free stadium, zero success (one top 6 in last 16 years), and no where near Spurs as a financial machine
- Palace, in huge FFP/wages problems, blew through owners and losing money
- United, Pool & City still have to spend billions on infrastructure at the worst interest rates in 15+ years

Levy has not got us over the line on the field, but to even suggest the off field work is anything but a huge success is disingenuous

Again, fully see why people want a change, because they don't want owners that care if it's sustainable/sensible but you can admit that and still understand Levy has made the club future proofed by the off the field work.

I'm thinking of clubs like Leeds, Forest, Sheffield Wednesday, all clubs at our level not that long ago.

 

[Raziel]

I'm thinking of clubs like Leeds, Forest, Sheffield Wednesday, all clubs at out level not that long ago.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine as well (pre Saudi money)
Arsenal used to earn £250M/yr more than us, they now earn less (and yes, I'm not arguing on field success, separate conversation)
And you can add the flavor of the month clubs, the dozens that flatter to deceive for a couple of years

 

[DubaiSpur]

what about all of the other PL clubs purchased in that time that are not worth anything now, aren't even in the PL?

if it's so easy, how come so many have failed and others have had to spend so much money?

also, the pots and pans, doesn't the motivation of the owner matter?

All the other PL clubs purchased in that time - which ones? Nearly every club that was in the PL then, that is in the PL now, is worth a lot more now than it was then. United, for example, is worth more now than it was in their heyday a decade+ ago. Villa is worth more now than it was when they were chasing Europe under Lerner - try bidding 62m for them now (what Lerner bought them for), see where that gets you. And so on.

In the interval, the owners that have spent a chunk of change generally did so to try and get their teams competing for things quickly - that extra bit beyond just existing as a net neutral line on the club accounts, as owners. That is a lot harder.

also, the pots and pans, doesn't the motivation of the owner matter?

Sure it does - said so above. Why do you ask?

 

[Baleforce]

All the other PL clubs purchased in that time - which ones? Nearly every club that was in the PL then, that is in the PL now, is worth a lot more now than it was then. United, for example, is worth more now than it was in their heyday a decade+ ago. Villa is worth more now than it was when they were chasing Europe under Lerner - try bidding 62m for them now (what Lerner bought them for), see where that gets you. And so on.

In the interval, the owners that have spent a chunk of change generally did so to try and get their teams competing for things quickly - that extra bit beyond just existing as a net neutral line on the club accounts, as owners. That is a lot harder.



Sure it does - said so above. Why do you ask?

how many clubs in the PL then, are still in the PL now, and haven't dropped out of it at some point in between? yet its easy?

of that those remain, which are worth so much more now who haven't pumped a load of outside money into the clubs?

surely if an owner oversees success at their club because they are sportswashing, it make that success worthless

 

[DubSpur]

All the other PL clubs purchased in that time - which ones? Nearly every club that was in the PL then, that is in the PL now, is worth a lot more now than it was then. United, for example, is worth more now than it was in their heyday a decade+ ago. Villa is worth more now than it was when they were chasing Europe under Lerner - try bidding 62m for them now (what Lerner bought them for), see where that gets you. And so on.

In the interval, the owners that have spent a chunk of change generally did so to try and get their teams competing for things quickly - that extra bit beyond just existing as a net neutral line on the club accounts, as owners. That is a lot harder.



Sure it does - said so above. Why do you ask?

And what did that extra chunk of money gain those clubs? Villa was a direct rival in the table when Lerner took over, where are they now?
Everton, another similar team to us when Enic took over, what has all that extra investment in them done? I'll give you the answer, fudge all.
We're self sufficient, competing for the top 4 every year and don't rely on a sugar daddy. There's only 3 other teams that can claim that and
they were already in that position before Enic took over, we're the only club to join them.

 

[DubaiSpur]

how many clubs in the PL then, are still in the PL now, and haven't dropped out of it at some point in between? yet its easy?

of that those remain, which are worth so much more now who haven't pumped a load of outside money into the clubs?

surely if an owner oversees success at their club because they are sportswashing, it make that success worthless

Arse, Aston Villa, Blackburn, Bolton, Charlton, Chelsea, Derby, Everton, Fulham, Ipswich, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Manchester United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Spurs, West Ham.

12 teams. Of those, I'd wager there isn't a single team that isn't more valuable now than it was then - not one. Even *including* the relegations, they are probably more valuable now than they were then, just by dint of participating in the souped up Premier League of 2023.

There's two separate arguments you're making here - one is about the value of clubs, which as I've explained above, doesn't hold - clubs naturally increased in value from 2001 to 2023 just because the league did.

And the other is about avoiding relegation, where as I say, they've done an above-average job in roughly letting us drift to natural equilibrium in the table on our own merits, without any real input (positive or negative) from them.

surely if an owner oversees success at their club because they are sportswashing, it make that success worthless

Nope. Game's unfair and always has been. Fair would be fan ownership across the game or NFL-style closed shops. As it stands, owners are the most important factor in a club's success or lack of it, and have been for a hundred+ years.

We don't celebrate our success in the 60s any less because we were able to outbid everybody for the players of the day (we broke the British transfer record for Greaves, after all). Same applies now.

 

[DubaiSpur]

And what did that extra chunk of money gain those clubs? Villa was a direct rival in the table when Lerner took over, where are they now?
Everton, another similar team to us when Enic took over, what has all that extra investment in them done? I'll give you the answer, fudge all.
We're self sufficient, competing for the top 4 every year and don't rely on a sugar daddy. There's only 3 other teams that can claim that and
they were already in that position before Enic took over, we're the only club to join them.

Depends. Leicester won the league and FA Cup with theirs. Everton have done fudge all with theirs. City and Chelsea have solidified themselves in that elite bracket with theirs. FSG revitalized Liverpool's fortunes with theirs. Villa did fudge all with theirs (last time, anyway -they're gearing up for another splash this time, with owners worth a lot more than Lewis is). Arse are going to win the league with theirs.

Depends on who comes in and how they spend their cash injections - I'd like to see us get the chance for a sustained try, and that isn't possible under ENIC.

 

[Baleforce]

Arse, Aston Villa, Blackburn, Bolton, Charlton, Chelsea, Derby, Everton, Fulham, Ipswich, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Manchester United, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Spurs, West Ham.

12 teams. Of those, I'd wager there isn't a single team that isn't more valuable now than it was then - not one. Even *including* the relegations, they are probably more valuable now than they were then, just by dint of participating in the souped up Premier League of 2023.

There's two separate arguments you're making here - one is about the value of clubs, which as I've explained above, doesn't hold - clubs naturally increased in value from 2001 to 2023 just because the league did.

And the other is about avoiding relegation, where as I say, they've done an above-average job in roughly letting us drift to natural equilibrium in the table on our own merits, without any real input (positive or negative) from them.



Nope. Game's unfair and always has been. Fair would be fan ownership across the game or NFL-style closed shops. As it stands, owners are the most important factor in a club's success or lack of it, and have been for a hundred+ years.

We don't celebrate our success in the 60s any less because we were able to outbid everybody for the players of the day (we broke the British transfer record for Greaves, after all). Same applies now.

how many of those clubs have increased in value to the same level we have though? only those were already established "big English clubs"

nobody is paying 3bn for villa for west ham for example

staying in the league has been hard, even for clubs as big as city and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, you exclude the behemoth that is United, the money and chemically doped clubs, and everyone else is a million miles behind us, with the exception of arsenal, who had the benefit of right place right time CL money in the early years, before ENIC took over

the evidence is there, ENIC have been exceptional business owners, by any considered metric

and yeah, there is a massive caveat about our success in the 60's, and more importantly the massive underachievement with what, at the time, was the greatest collection of footballers the game had ever seen

 

[DubSpur]

Depends. Leicester won the league and FA Cup with theirs. Everton have done fudge all with theirs. City and Chelsea have solidified themselves in that elite bracket with theirs. FSG revitalized Liverpool's fortunes with theirs. Villa did fudge all with theirs (last time, anyway -they're gearing up for another splash this time, with owners worth a lot more than Lewis is). Arse are going to win the league with theirs.

Depends on who comes in and how they spend their cash injections - I'd like to see us get the chance for a sustained try, and that isn't possible under ENIC.

City and Chelsea are sugar daddy/sports washing clubs, not just a chunk of money invested...
Liverpool was already one of those that are self-sufficient and FSG haven't invested in them in 6 or 7 years.
Arse are another one that was self-sufficient and the majority of the money that has them where they are is self-generated and not from the owners.
Leister did have their moment in the sun but are now fighting relegation and will probably be doing so for the next few years at least.

Let's be honest, your gripe with Enic is that they are not a nation-state willing to throw ridiculous amounts of money at the club in order to win things.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Whilst the business acumen has been amazing. The football decisions have not always been. It's been done to death the reasons for and against. Sacking managers every 2yrs isn't helpful. I could stomach ENIC (and I want them gone) if we could have a plan and stick to it.

While Levy has done amazing things and pushed us further is it now not also possible that he may have reached his ceiling and possible plateaued? And if not what suggestions has their been that he will change his approach on the pitch? I think some may fans of said Conte was his last chance. Well it's not gonna be.

I would like to say I will be excited by whatever next appointment rocks up. But alas in 2025 we will be here again....but we live in hope. However like Maya Angelou said "when someone shows you who they are, believe them"