Daniel Levy - Chairman

[RigorMortis]

West ham are a yo yo club and if London is a factor why not all London clubs vs them? Turnover and history is what makes a peer group imv not location

I would say West Ham’s fanbase exceeds that of the other London clubs outside of ourselves Arse and Chelsea

I just don’t get the argument for having Villa, Leeds etc as peers, ten or fifteen years in the 80s or 90s we would have used the big five as our peers, it’s ever changing.

What doesn’t change are fundamentals such as some of the common metrics that we have with arsenal, chelsea and west ham.
i get it, im from Walthamstow, it feels dirty to call West Ham a peer but what constitutes a big club is intangible, i think we are bigger than West Ham. Is there any logical reason apart from lack of history ambition and ineptitude of their ownership that has led to that happening given our locations, comparable fan bases ( at least locally), not really in my opinion

 

[billyiddo]

I would say West Ham’s fanbase exceeds that of the other London clubs outside of ourselves Arse and Chelsea

I just don’t get the argument for having Villa, Leeds etc as peers, ten or fifteen years in the 80s or 90s we would have used the big five as our peers, it’s ever changing.

What doesn’t change are fundamentals such as some of the common metrics that we have with arsenal, chelsea and west ham.
i get it, im from Walthamstow, it feels dirty to call West Ham a peer but what constitutes a big club is intangible, i think we are bigger than West Ham. Is there any logical reason apart from lack of history ambition and ineptitude of their ownership that has led to that happening given our locations, comparable fan bases ( at least locally), not really in my opinion

Because they are big traditional clubs with a similar patchy record of success as ourselves - spots of success here and there but never really dominated like United & Liverpool (&Arsenal?) Like us they happened to be in a lull when the Sky & CL money rolled in which set us all back and grew a divide in the old 'big 5'

 

[RigorMortis]

I don't think you understand what the term you're arguing against means mate

I was just saying that we are at the beginning of a rebuild and that your comparison to Arsenal would be more even handed if you compared it to when they were at the beginning of theirs.

I think they were a bit higher up the curve than us, their owners ( despite being much maligned ) had shown they were willing to pay for top transfer fees and wages on the likes of aubmeyang, sanchez, ozil etc.

I just don’t see our owners ever trying to take that final push. Maybe it’s the fatalist in me but i knew when we didn’t really push on when Poch was in charge that our chance at least under these owners to really make history had gone. The CL final was almost like putting everything on black at the roulette wheel in Vegas. And unfortunately it didn’t land in our favour.

 

[billyiddo]

I think they were a bit higher up the curve than us, their owners ( despite being much maligned ) had shown they were willing to pay for top transfer fees and wages on the likes of aubmeyang, sanchez, ozil etc.

I just don’t see our owners ever trying to take that final push. Maybe it’s the fatalist in me but i knew when we didn’t really push on when Poch was in charge that our chance at least under these owners to really make history had gone. The CL final was almost like putting everything on black at the roulette wheel in Vegas. And unfortunately it didn’t land in our favour.

None of that has relevance to the point regarding comparing the teams which is what Batbrick was doing - he was comparing the 2nd best team in the league 4 or 5 years in to a rebuild to a team a couple of years in. Use the team they had during Artetas 2nd 8th finish season if you want to do an even comparison

 

[RigorMortis]

Because they are big traditional clubs with a similar patchy record of success as ourselves - spots of success here and there but never really dominated like United & Liverpool (&Arsenal?) Like us they happened to be in a lull when the Sky & CL money rolled in which set us all back and grew a divide in the old 'big 5'

To be honest outside of Liverpool who have been the most consistent, United under Fergie and City now under Pep. Has any club ever consistently dominated

Villa have one league championship in the 20th century, the rest were in the 19th century. I know they have that european cup win.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine haven’t won anything for GHod knows how long. Leeds had a purple patch under Levy and that Cantona inspired championship back in the day.

i think our history and glamour far outweighs those clubs.

People also forget that pre premier league and champions league it was a different story, cup wins meant more than finishing second. The UEFA Cup was harder to win than the European Cup because of the depth of the competition.

So you can slice this cake in numerous different ways. The argument that Dublin Spur is making is that we should be thankful because we are doing better than our peer group of Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Leeds doesn’t wash with me
Tbf it could be argued that against that peer group currently two of them may have overtaken us anyway

 

[RigorMortis]

None of that has relevance to the point regarding comparing the teams?

you said we were are on the same path as arsenal were under Edu/Arteta a few years back

i’m saying i don’t think it’s comparable because of the reasons i mentioned?

 

[Raziel]

So a straight question.
Do people think Daniel's wage and transfer policy hasn't contributed, over time, to our inability to win things or go the extra mile when in position to do so?

I think what’s contributed most is other clubs have higher sources of legitimate and illegitimate income
I don’t think our co owners wages make a difference TBH because the highest paid people are ok the pitch and the sidelines

@thfcsteff it's a red herring mate, @Bedfordspurs is right (see image below, we can do it across net spend/total spend, even wages.). This narrative that has gotten all overblown again since we are brick is "Spurs does not spend", consistently across multiple time horizons that is wrong. We are always in top 6, sometimes top 3 or 4 when it comes to spending and wages. It's similar to the new other narrative that we buy badly, like how everyone is refers to Saha/Nelson as how Spurs does January windows but somehow forgets Porro, Bentancur & Deki.

The only financial metric criticism that stands to scrutiny is wages as % of turnover, and even that can be seen by 1/Every big club is striving to cut wages, Arsenal as example has significantly reduced their wage bill down to the ~50% range, even Madrid & Barca are doing it, 2/The age profile of our current squad would lead to lower salaries anyway (and yes, that probably is by design).

Now, to your specific question

- inability to win things or go the extra mile when in position to do so?

I'm going to break that into 2

1. Inability to win things, 100% disagree, if Spurs never got in a challenging position, then it's on the squad and squad only, fact is, Spurs has basically been in a QF, SF, Final or Top 4 spot on average every single year of ENIC's time (it's something like 24 times), the failure to convert should be a whole separate discussion (how the fudge do you not at least fluke 2-3 of those?)

2. Go the extra mile, this like the wages to turnover is a legitimate question/criticism, and realistically, there are 3 points in the clubs time under ENIC that really can be pointed to
- Under Harry (famous Saha/Nelson window)
- Under Poch (famous no signings windows)
- Post Poch (delaying rebuild)

Each of those have easily pointed out context that I won't go into (intention isn't to defend club/ownership).

 

[billyiddo]

you said we were are on the same path as arsenal were under Edu/Arteta a few years back

i’m saying i don’t think it’s comparable because of the reasons i mentioned?

Yes the same path being that they tore down the mistakes made building their previous squads and made a conscious decision to perform a top to bottom rebuild, gutting their squad of ageing high earners and starting again and taking some short term pain in the process. Whether or not you think they are or were better staffed to over see that type of maneuver doesn't change that it's what we are going through currently.

 

[RigorMortis]

None of that has relevance to the point regarding comparing the teams which is what Batbrick was doing - he was comparing the 2nd best team in the league 4 or 5 years in to a rebuild to a team a couple of years in. Use the team they had during Artetas 2nd 8th finish season if you want to do an even comparison

The ambition of the owners would play a part though? I really don’t see your point. The team that finished eighth still had big money signings such as Lacazette and Aubemeyang, Ozil had just been bombed out.

For me the arsenal board had shown a willingness to bring in top tier talent, although the execution can be faulted. They also had two very decent managers in first Emery ( who was treated appallingly by their fans) and as much as it pains me to say it, Legohead.

We have ENIC and Ange, so forgive me but i don’t think our path is comparable to theirs

 

[RigorMortis]

Yes the same path being that they tore down the mistakes made building their previous squads and made a conscious decision to perform a top to bottom rebuild, gutting their squad of ageing high earners and starting again and taking some short term pain in the process. Whether or not you think they are or were better staffed to over see that type of maneuver doesn't change that it's what we are going through currently.

I never said that’s not what we are going through, i am simply saying that the situation and context are very different due to the factors i addressed. Maybe i should rephrase it as we might be on the same path but i beleive destinations will be very different under the current owners and manager

 

[billyiddo]

I never said that’s not what we are going through, i am simply saying that the situation and context are very different due to the factors i addressed. Maybe i should rephrase it as we might be on the same path but i beleive destinations will be very different under the current owners and manager

Yes the difference of opinion here is down to where the path will take us vs where it has taken them (not whether or not we are going through the same thing as them which was my only point) I'm not particularly interested in dragging that side of the debate out tbh as it's obvious that we will do no good in your view.

 

[Raziel]

The ambition of the owners would play a part though? I really don’t see your point. The team that finished eighth still had big money signings such as Lacazette and Aubemeyang, Ozil had just been bombed out.

For me the arsenal board had shown a willingness to bring in top tier talent, although the execution can be faulted. They also had two very decent managers in first Emery ( who was treated appallingly by their fans) and as much as it pains me to say it, Legohead.

We have ENIC and Ange, so forgive me but i don’t think our path is comparable to theirs

It never was (in last 30 years)

- They had 20 years of top 4 PL & CL revenue headstart, they built their their stadium years earlier (so further along on pay back) and they have a history of recent success.

Despite the drop off towards the end of Wenger era, fact is, they are a bigger brand/attraction, and this typically is the stuff that Spurs fans just willing ignore

- You think if we matched cost/salary for Rice (as example), all things being equal, where does he go?

Again, my complaint is never us not matching City/Liverpool/Arsenal/United (a whole other level), it's when we get outplayed by the Villa's of the world.

 

[Muttley]

The only financial metric criticism that stands to scrutiny is wages as % of turnover

For me, the most important financial metric is our own P&L across multiple years. Like all companies, you change one dial and you impact another. Wages to turnover below arguably releases more funds for transfer fees. All these dials are inter-related. Nobody is taking money out.

They simple way I look at it is about whether our current P&L is optimised. Is everyone on the payroll having the right impact to the 1st team setup? Are we wasting money on areas that aren't having a first team impact? Are we doing write downs when players leave? Are we over-committed on our payment terms on prior purchases?

I'm sure you get the point I'm making. We can all find a bunch of questions that scrutinise our football operational performance as a club. The current answer is that we're actually doing really well at this point. It is the best I've seen for a long time actually. I don't see 6 or 7 surplus players bleeding our first team dry on salaries and having no impact? I don't see any Ndombele's dragging our finances down. There's been times in the past where my questions have just identified some really bad running of football ops.

Right now, the only one I worry about is whether our match day revenues start to drop as fans stay away because of the on pitch performance. That can destabilise the P&L model, but only a little.

I have more respect for the current running of our club than I've had for a long time. Love the direction.

 

[Raziel]

For me, the most important financial metric is our own P&L across multiple years. Like all companies, you change one dial and you impact another. Wages to turnover below arguably releases more funds for transfer fees. All these dials are inter-related. Nobody is taking money out.

They simple way I look at it is about whether our current P&L is optimised. Is everyone on the payroll having the right impact to the 1st team setup? Are we wasting money on areas that aren't having a first team impact? Are we doing write downs when players leave? Are we over-committed on our payment terms on prior purchases?

I'm sure you get the point I'm making. We can all find a bunch of questions that scrutinise our football operational performance as a club. The current answer is that we're actually doing really well at this point. It is the best I've seen for a long time actually. I don't see 6 or 7 surplus players bleeding our first team dry on salaries and having no impact? I don't see any Ndombele's dragging our finances down. There's been times in the past where my questions have just identified some really bad running of football ops.

Right now, the only one I worry about is whether our match day revenues start to drop as fans stay away because of the on pitch performance. That can destabilise the P&L model, but only a little.

I have more respect for the current running of our club than I've had for a long time. Love the direction.

But this is the nuance

- Can we outspend a certain 3 clubs in the league? no
- Can we/do we spend enough to be in the picture? yes
- Are we maximizing that (to your point)? not sure (I'll explain why)

The club has issues, but one of them that very rarely gets factored in (in this moment), is we are playing catchup, we have (and yes, our own fault in a lot of ways) had to a rebuild completely the "almost" squad and replace a generational talent, so it's not just about can we match/better other teams spending, we have to catch the squad up first and then continue to spend.

I think we are trying to be smart about it, catch talents like Gray, Bergvall, Vuskovich as well as very smart buys like VDV, Vic but that has a time to potential that seemingly has bit us in the ass this season.

 

[Muttley]

But this is the nuance

- Can we outspend a certain 3 clubs in the league? no
- Can we/do we spend enough to be in the picture? yes
- Are we maximizing that (to your point)? not sure (I'll explain why)

The club has issues, but one of them that very rarely gets factored in (in this moment), is we are playing catchup, we have (and yes, our own fault in a lot of ways) had to a rebuild completely the "almost" squad and replace a generational talent, so it's not just about can we match/better other teams spending, we have to catch the squad up first and then continue to spend.

I think we are trying to be smart about it, catch talents like Gray, Bergvall, Vuskovich as well as very smart buys like VDV, Vic but that has a time to potential that seemingly has bit us in the ass this season.

It's a great point and one I agree with. I'm not sure what year this project is in but I tend to think about it starting in about the 22/23 season before Ange walked through the door. It's about 3-4 years in at this point, would be my guess. Roll on a couple of years and we would be way beyond that catchup point you talk about. We'll be making serious headway into your 3 bullets. Even next season becomes easier again. We'll have seen another 4 or 5 go and will have fresh blood in as well as our promoted youngsters.

 

[RigorMortis]

It never was (in last 30 years)

- They had 20 years of top 4 PL & CL revenue headstart, they built their their stadium years earlier (so further along on pay back) and they have a history of recent success.

Despite the drop off towards the end of Wenger era, fact is, they are a bigger brand/attraction, and this typically is the stuff that Spurs fans just willing ignore

- You think if we matched cost/salary for Rice (as example), all things being equal, where does he go?

Again, my complaint is never us not matching City/Liverpool/Arsenal/United (a whole other level), it's when we get outplayed by the Villa's of the world.

I would agree on the most part.
Arsenal over the premier league years and particularly under Wenger changed their “brand”
completely from being a rather dull burning footballl club famed for defensive 1-0 performances to the hipster club and a big global precence.

I believe We did miss three huge windows of opportunity though to overtake them,
1. When Bale and Modric were at their peak
2. The Poch years
3. The 2021/22 season under Conte

That was where if we pushed on, i think those big name players would have come to us.
Perception is everything and under ENI the perception is we just aren’t big players. i’d argue that’s not the perception we have been held in for
most of our history.

I also firmly don’t believe we should consider the Arsenals and Chelsea’s out of our level.
The hard facts are, we stayed static under Sugar at a crucial time in football history where the landscape changed and yes we have been playing catch up since then. My annoyance with ENIC is that the work they have done on the pitch hasn’t been matched with that same force of nature for footballing matters and my fear always was we would peak and then regress.

That’s what is happening now. I know there are many here who would argue we were punching above our weight and we have simply reverted to the norm.
I don’t agree with that. I firmly believe we are better as a club than than that and with the right ambition, have the potential to be there.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It never was (in last 30 years)

- They had 20 years of top 4 PL & CL revenue headstart, they built their their stadium years earlier (so further along on pay back) and they have a history of recent success.

Despite the drop off towards the end of Wenger era, fact is, they are a bigger brand/attraction, and this typically is the stuff that Spurs fans just willing ignore

- You think if we matched cost/salary for Rice (as example), all things being equal, where does he go?

Again, my complaint is never us not matching City/Liverpool/Arsenal/United (a whole other level), it's when we get outplayed by the Villa's of the world.

I think it depends on where the clubs are at the time. When WE are top 4/PL title challengers and with top class level strikers such as Kane and Son, he definitely chooses us.

That's the thing: when we have been ahead of them in terms of playing levels and players, when did WE decide to blow them (or their likes) out of the water with our own pull/attraction?
When was the last time we made a buy that made everyone in the PL (except maybe City/Chelsea) sit up and say, "Damn"?
We never seem to actually go for that approach, i.e. strike HARD when we are absolutely smoking.

When we've had Kane, when did we REALLY push to get him and us as a club striking competition that meant if/when he's injured we still scare the crap out of most teams?

Say what you like about Arsenal but they certainly strike better than us when their iron is hot. It's all well and good giving the reasons tehy were ahead of us previously (PL, top 4 money etc) but they really fell away big time near the end of the Wenger years and we frittered away our lead over them in recent years

 

[Daisuk]

The term "rebuild" - what does it even mean? Every club is constantly rebuilding. You sell some guys you get some new dudes in. As football goes. Every fudging season. PAINFUL REBUILD! No, its fudging not, we're just selling some guys that were great and buying some guys that are possibly brick, as per usual, nothing to see here. Everyone is constantly shifting players and hence rebuilding all the bloody time. I don't get the silly drama around this word. Just had to get that off my chest, now back to F5'ing Twitter. PAINFUL REFRESH! PAINFUL! EXCRUCIATING!

 

[glorygloryeze]

The term "rebuild" - what does it even mean? Every club is constantly rebuilding. You sell some guys you get some new dudes in. As football goes. Every fudging season. PAINFUL REBUILD! No, its fudging not, we're just selling some guys that were great and buying some guys that are possibly brick, as per usual, nothing to see here. Everyone is constantly shifting players and hence rebuilding all the bloody time. I don't get the silly drama around this word. Just had to get that off my chest, now back to F5'ing Twitter. PAINFUL REFRESH! PAINFUL! EXCRUCIATING!

It will be painful if we are in the Championship during the rebuild...

 

[Raziel]

I would agree on the most part.
Arsenal over the premier league years and particularly under Wenger changed their “brand”
completely from being a rather dull burning footballl club famed for defensive 1-0 performances to the hipster club and a big global precence.

I believe We did miss three huge windows of opportunity though to overtake them,
1. When Bale and Modric were at their peak
2. The Poch years
3. The 2021/22 season under Conte

That was where if we pushed on, i think those big name players would have come to us.
Perception is everything and under ENI the perception is we just aren’t big players. i’d argue that’s not the perception we have been held in for
most of our history.

I also firmly don’t believe we should consider the Arsenals and Chelsea’s out of our level.
The hard facts are, we stayed static under Sugar at a crucial time in football history where the landscape changed and yes we have been playing catch up since then. My annoyance with ENIC is that the work they have done on the pitch hasn’t been matched with that same force of nature for footballing matters and my fear always was we would peak and then regress.

That’s what is happening now. I know there are many here who would argue we were punching above our weight and we have simply reverted to the norm.
I don’t agree with that. I firmly believe we are better as a club than than that and with the right ambition, have the potential to be there.

I remember boring boring/1-0 to the Scum years, it's more 20+ years of CL revenue that I was referencing that gave them an advantage

Not sure I agree we had the opportunity to overtake them in a single moment (again, think this is a bit of a misconception, would be kind of like Leicester or West Ham saying they had a moment to overtake us permanently), you get ahead, you have to constantly work to keep ahead. But for arguments sake

1. Bale and Modric came too early, no amount of investment was going to allow us to keep them over Madrid. That has been proven years later where with the step up, we have been far less vulnerable to selling (when we don't want to)
2. Poch (and my opinion here is a lot more mixed than others) and the club had the context of Stadium, typical Spurs, good thing happens at worst possible time. The Stadium had to happen (it is what to your later point keeps Chelsea/Arsenal in reach financially), having to fudging move the point after our undefeated home season, having to live with some financial constraint, and at peak Poch years, that's brick timing.
3. Conte got Deki, Bentancur, Porro (we completely pushed the boat out for him on that), decided to be a dingdong about Spence, Biss as well?

You point re us paying the price in Sugar era is 100%, we have been in catchup ever since.

I don't disagree with the basic premise, could ENIC have been braver? 100%

I also believe we have the potential, my caveat is we don't have the "right" to be there (as some people think), it needs to be earned, and regardless of owners, or bravery, we will likely always been fighting in a rigged system (unless we become one of the cheats)