Daniel Levy - Chairman

[braineclipse]

Bingo.

100% this.

My impression is that quite a lot of what's aimed as criticism ends up having a both rational and non Levy blaming explanation. Like this example, not that I can know that this is true, but seems plausible.

Didn't sign Suarez, oh the manager didn't want Suarez. Didn't sign enough players, oh the manager didn't actually want that many players. Didn't sign player X, oh that's because we prioritised signing player Y instead and that was actually the football side decision, not Levy.

But for some on the Levy out side that criticism seems to stick.

 

[Bishop]

The point was that they almost sacked probably one of the best managers ever and them not doing that wasn't just football nous or knowledge. It was also luck. I.e. had Levy had that luck things may have been rather different for us, and different for them had they not had that luck. I don't think that's irrelevant.

Surely the club contacted Mourinho because they knew they were going to fire Pochettino? Had Mourinho not wanted to come Pochettino would still get fired, just with someone else coming in imo.

Again though I'm pretty much expecting around half of managerial appointments to end up unsuccessful.

But they didn't sack him. You're talking in the realms of ifs, buts, and maybes. We will likely never know all the ins and outs of how close Fergie got to getting the sack that year but I also remember that United had an endemic drinking culture deeply rooted at the club and Fergie's priority was to root that out. I would imagine that along with his previous outstanding record at Aberdeen bought him some extra leeway, but that's the point they didn't sack him. We did sack Poch and replaced him with a terribly unsuited coach in Mourinho.

Again I'll say say so it's clear because I think you're missing my point, sacking Poch is not the issue. The issue is the replacement, I'm not talking in hindsight or with the benefit of time. Mourinho was an obviously terrible appointment at the time. If we had contracted someone different the outcome would likely have been better and different and even if it had similarly failed I would give Levy the benefit doubt as he had tried to arrest our slump by doing something bold. Please note, bold is a very key word for me when it comes to Levy, and his lack of it in football operations.

Mourinho was not the guy, If he had paid any attention (rather than being star struck by the name brand) to the end of his second spell at Chelsea and then his Manchester United tenure it would have been really evident that;

A. We did not have the quality of player he required for success.
B. We would not purchase those expensive, established names that he again requires for success.
C. Our squad did not suit either his managerial or tactical style.

For further clarity to my mind state, you will never see me criticise the appointment of Nuno despite it ending in fairly abject failure. I consider that a boldish appointment and one that was more in keeping with the type of coaches that actually work well at Spurs and one that wouldn't be require a complete reconfiguration of the squad, rather an evolution. So you will never have seen nor will you ever see me criticise the appointment of Nuno but Mourinho all day and again it didn't take a Football savant to be able to see that it was fudging clear for all and that's where I say the man's football acumen is lacking.

 

[braineclipse]

But they didn't sack him. You're talking in the realms of ifs, buts, and maybes. We will likely never know all the ins and outs of how close Fergie got to getting the sack that year but I also remember that United had an endemic drinking culture deeply rooted at the club and Fergie's priority was to root that out. I would imagine that along with his previous outstanding record at Aberdeen bought him some extra leeway, but that's the point they didn't sack him. We did sack Poch and replaced him with a terribly unsuited coach in Mourinho.

Again I'll say say so it's clear because I think you're missing my point, sacking Poch is not the issue. The issue is the replacement, I'm not talking in hindsight or with the benefit of time. Mourinho was an obviously terrible appointment at the time. If we had contracted someone different the outcome would likely have been better and different and even if it had similarly failed I would give Levy the benefit doubt as he had tried to arrest our slump by doing something bold. Please note, bold is a very key word for me when it comes to Levy, and his lack of it in football operations.

Mourinho was not the guy, If he had paid any attention (rather than being star struck by the name brand) to the end of his second spell at Chelsea and then his Manchester United tenure it would have been really evident that;

A. We did not have the quality of player he required for success.
B. We would not purchase those expensive, established names that he again requires for success.
C. Our squad did not suit either his managerial or tactical style.

For further clarity to my mind state, you will never see me criticise the appointment of Nuno despite it ending in fairly abject failure. I consider that a boldish appointment and one that was more in keeping with the type of coaches that actually work well at Spurs and one that wouldn't be require a complete reconfiguration of the squad, rather an evolution. So you will never have seen nor will you ever see me criticise the appointment of Nuno but Mourinho all day and again it didn't take a Football savant to be able to see that it was fudging clear for all and that's where I say the man's football acumen is lacking.

When evaluating someone's decision making and there isn't a huge sample size I think looking also at what lead them to making that decision is relevant.

To the extent it's down to luck it can't be ascribed to skill or knowledge. That's not to say skill or knowledge isn't also a factor.

Similarly Levy gets credit for Pochettino and imo deservedly so. I really wanted Pochettino at the time, but he wasn't a super obvious pick. But Pochettino being THAT good for us can't just be ascribed to skill or knowledge for Levy. Luck was a factor.

 

[Bishop]

When evaluating someone's decision making and there isn't a huge sample size I think looking also at what lead them to making that decision is relevant.

To the extent it's down to luck it can't be ascribed to skill or knowledge. That's not to say skill or knowledge isn't also a factor.

Similarly Levy gets credit for Pochettino and imo deservedly so. I really wanted Pochettino at the time, but he wasn't a super obvious pick. But Pochettino being THAT good for us can't just be ascribed to skill or knowledge for Levy. Luck was a factor.

Dude we are talking about the poor appointment of Mourinho and you're diverting into talking about Poch? I've already given him credit for appointing Poch in this very thread. Poch was a great appointment I think that is widely agreed and accepted and I have no problem giving Levy the kudos.

Maybe I'm crazy but again for me this just seems like like you don't want to actually speak on criticism I made of Levy. You're doing what Dub did....

Cool evaluate what made him make the bad decision, it was still self evidently a bad decision. If you go into something knowing it's wrong but still do anyway am I supposed to make excuses for you?

 

[braineclipse]

Dude we are talking about the poor appointment of Mourinho and you're diverting into talking about Poch? I've already given him credit for appointing Poch in this very thread. Poch was a great appointment I think that is widely agreed and accepted and I have no problem giving Levy the kudos.

Maybe I'm crazy but again for me this just seems like like you don't want to actually speak on criticism I made of Levy. You're doing what Dub did....

Cool evaluate what made him make the bad decision, it was still self evidently a bad decision. If you go into something knowing it's wrong but still do anyway am I supposed to make excuses for you?

We were talking about different things.

I've already stated that I'm not here to defend the appointment of Mourinho. I count that as one of the mistakes. We're in agreement on that.

We were talking about luck with regards to other chairmen (at first). The almost firing of Ferguson. How there's imo a portion of luck in that, not just football nous.

I then tried to link that point to Levy also being lucky on some decisions and used one of his biggest successes as an example. I wasn't trying to steer the conversation to the hiring of Pochettino. That's why I started that paragraph with "similarly", to highlight that this was an example of a similar thing.

 

[Muttley]

No clubs wants to make money
The tax burden as you say makes it stupid
But that year, that profit helped with the loan deals needed for the ground (IMO)

Yes, as I said. We got the multi-year model wrong. We could have best of both worlds.

 

[Muttley]

My view on Poch was that he needed to part ways. Our 11 vs 11 model wasn't working any more. We were going into games where we had the superior team and losing games because of tactics and player motivation. Poch had lost his principles on how his teams should be setup and started to compromise it based on his players. Those players needed reminding how to put the shirt on and cross that white line including our most senior ones. He could no longer get that bunch of players massively organised and punching above their weight. We really needed him to do that as well, because of the financial model. We weren't out of it, and it got even harder with COVID after he left.

It was a very sad day for the club, but the right decision at the time. The next decision and all of the ones up to Fabio and Ange were bad ones and representative of how our chairman run football operations.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I didn't engage because it was irrelevant. The point was Edwards and Dein are two examples of football executives with good football nous. The appointments they made were examples and the firings they didn't make.

If you are going to sack Poch then I'm sorry the replacement is just as important in that decision making process otherwise what are you trying achieve? Given that we know Mourinho was in contact prior to Poch's firing we know that the sacking was made with Mourinho's incoming already predetermined. You cannot then separate the absolute failure that was the Mourinho appointment from the sacking of Poch.

Instead Dub wanted to just talk about what Poch had done since like that has any relevance. I don't support Poch FC, I don't care about him or what he's done since. I care about what Tottenham do.

Sacking Poch was never the issue for me, who replaced him was and for me if you try to divorce one from the other especially given the context to defend the decision and the decision-maker ie. levy well I'm sorry but that sounds exactly like what I described....teflon.

It’s about continuity. Case in point, Brighton, they lose players and managers like there is no tomorrow but they replace them with similar, like-minded players and coaches to the point where it almost doesn’t matter who plays for them or manages them. They are still a really good, consistent team. Ripping it up and trying something different is another way to go and not necessarily always a bad thing, but when it goes pear shaped, you don’t get the credit for trying it or people saying “I can see why he did it”. No one says that when sign players like Ryan Nelson or Joe Hart.

 

[Baleforce]

It’s about continuity. Case in point, Brighton, they lose players and managers like there is no tomorrow but they replace them with similar, like-minded players and coaches to the point where it almost doesn’t matter who plays for them or manages them. They are still a really good, consistent team. Ripping it up and trying something different is another way to go and not necessarily always a bad thing, but when it goes pear shaped, you don’t get the credit for trying it or people saying “I can see why he did it”. No one says that when sign players like Ryan Nelson or Joe Hart.

only for the last 3/4 years though, before that they had a couple of seasons fighting relegation, before that, they weren't even in the PL

we've been in and around the CL places for most of the last 20 years

if Brighton keep that up, fair play

 

[thfcsteff]

My view on Poch was that he needed to part ways. Our 11 vs 11 model wasn't working any more. We were going into games where we had the superior team and losing games because of tactics and player motivation. Poch had lost his principles on how his teams should be setup and started to compromise it based on his players. Those players needed reminding how to put the shirt on and cross that white line including our most senior ones. He could no longer get that bunch of players massively organised and punching above their weight. We really needed him to do that as well, because of the financial model. We weren't out of it, and it got even harder with COVID after he left.

It was a very sad day for the club, but the right decision at the time. The next decision and all of the ones up to Fabio and Ange were bad ones and representative of how our chairman run football operations.

I'll bite mate, only because I suspect you might be the only person who hasn't heard me grumble about this whole thing LOL (trust me, regulars here will be sighing and going elsewhere LOL)...

The 2018/19 season was, IMO, Poch's greatest season. He defied the sorts of odds to get us top 4 and into the CL Final which no other manager, not Pep, not prime Fergie, would've achieved with the squad and injuries he had. No signings that summer (due to a belief that there were only so many Njies and Nkoudous one could tolerate). Injuries. Players who he knew would not be extending their contracts. The extended time at Wembley (an extra 2/3 of the season when it was said we'd be back home to start the season). The wobbles between him and the board (not the least of which was the whole Amazon thing - hearing about it that Xmas and being told, not consulted with). Yet through it all, he managed to get us back into the top 4 AND into a CL Final.

The mistake was Levy sweet-talking him into staying on the premise he'd be backed and all would be well. Hindsight certainly says we should've made the decision then -amicably. Instead, and this is my opinion solely so I'll accept criticism for it, Levy simply could not countenance the bad publicity he'd have got for letting go of a manager who'd 'just been at the CL Final' and who had spent a month tops as manager in the new stadium (one he consulted on with regards to dressing room and manager/coach facilities). He had to try and make it work. Which is a decision I'd have applauded had it been a) for the right reasons and b) been stuck to for the rest of season 2019/20.

Instead, he signed two players Poch really wanted, all seemed OK, but then we see Mourinho in the stands as a guest! You couldn't script it really. And eventually Levy cans him, knowing that he can announce Mourinho the day after because the Machiavellian that is Mou had been doing the dirty and negotiating with Daniel, knowing how badly Daniel had always wanted him!
I'll concede that Covid made it impossible to know whether ultimately Mourinho would've done OK, because with no income and Jose's overall lack of interest in working with the tools he had, it was doomed to failure.

I still think Poch had earned the right to rebuild again. But the truth is, he was fudged from the summer.

 

[Jurgen the German]

only for the last 3/4 years though, before that they had a couple of seasons fighting relegation, before that, they weren't even in the PL

we've been in and around the CL places for most of the last 20 years

if Brighton keep that up, fair play

Well yes they were a promoted team and it takes time to become an established premier league club but they’ve not been relegated since they got promoted and have became a very well run club.

Arsenal and Liverpool also hired managers with a similar philosophy and style to what they had previously whereas in the past we have gone from one style to the next which requires more surgery.

 

[Muttley]

I'll bite mate, only because I suspect you might be the only person who hasn't heard me grumble about this whole thing LOL (trust me, regulars here will be sighing and going elsewhere LOL)...

The 2018/19 season was, IMO, Poch's greatest season. He defied the sorts of odds to get us top 4 and into the CL Final which no other manager, not Pep, not prime Fergie, would've achieved with the squad and injuries he had. No signings that summer (due to a belief that there were only so many Njies and Nkoudous one could tolerate). Injuries. Players who he knew would not be extending their contracts. The extended time at Wembley (an extra 2/3 of the season when it was said we'd be back home to start the season). The wobbles between him and the board (not the least of which was the whole Amazon thing - hearing about it that Xmas and being told, not consulted with). Yet through it all, he managed to get us back into the top 4 AND into a CL Final.

The mistake was Levy sweet-talking him into staying on the premise he'd be backed and all would be well. Hindsight certainly says we should've made the decision then -amicably. Instead, and this is my opinion solely so I'll accept criticism for it, Levy simply could not countenance the bad publicity he'd have got for letting go of a manager who'd 'just been at the CL Final' and who had spent a month tops as manager in the new stadium (one he consulted on with regards to dressing room and manager/coach facilities). He had to try and make it work. Which is a decision I'd have applauded had it been a) for the right reasons and b) been stuck to for the rest of season 2019/20.

Instead, he signed two players Poch really wanted, all seemed OK, but then we see Mourinho in the stands as a guest! You couldn't script it really. And eventually Levy cans him, knowing that he can announce Mourinho the day after because the Machiavellian that is Mou had been doing the dirty and negotiating with Daniel, knowing how badly Daniel had always wanted him!
I'll concede that Covid made it impossible to know whether ultimately Mourinho would've done OK, because with no income and Jose's overall lack of interest in working with the tools he had, it was doomed to failure.

I still think Poch had earned the right to rebuild again. But the truth is, he was fudged from the summer.

I get it. 16/17 was by far the best team and then it went downhill. Subsequent achievements were amazing really. I still have no clue how we got to that CL final, apart from the size of the player bonuses. That will motivate an Eriksen on a Wednesday even though he just couldn't be arsed on the Saturday afternoon. Him and a bunch of other prima donnas that Poch had let get way too comfortable.

I have always backed Poch staunchly over finally putting his foot down with Levy and his recruitment team. They couldn't close a door at the time, and get Poch one credible player. It's also interesting that all these fans blaming Poch for signing nobody also can't come up with a single name that we could have signed. The best I've heard was Tielemans and he's definitely no world beater. From the summer of 2017, every transfer window was compromised.

The other aspect is the cashflow model Levy CHOSE to put us through. Fans talk as if he didn't have choices and that was our destiny. Levy said that our plan was to have CL football as the stadium opened. In reality, Poch gave him 2 or 3 pots of incremental CL revenues and Levy still held him to zero net spending. Levy would then post record profits and give HMRC a nice Christmas present rather than spend it on players. So how did Levy go to a multi-year projection with no CL football on it to one with it multiple times and still say the football operations and stadium were different pots? Smart people just aren't born yesterday on this stuff. It was seriously bad multi-year cashflow management from the very top.

Back to Poch though. He had lost his coaching principles on his preferred football philosophy and become way too accommodating to his players. His best years were with 4-2-3-1 and even 3-5-2. I couldn't even tell you what he finished up playing as it was all over the shop. He had never disciplined Sonny into defending properly, a problem we still have today. We would see guys like Davies high and wide as the ball hit our net and we we had completely lost our double pivot in midfield. Our left side was a sieve. The midfield unit was core to everything Poch had achieved perviously and Poch stopped focusing on it. Sissoko was just playing with his heart and not using his brain at all, leaving his midfield team mates doing the water carrying for him. The madness of Poch not coaching properly.

I seriously found it hard to defend Poch at the end. Aside from the all of the off-field stuff, he had stopped doing the very thing we needed him for unfortunately. Even if I go back to the argument that "any football ops 2-in-the-box model with Levy as one of them is a mess" argument, Poch couldn't hide on the pure coach related stuff. At least for me. He had to fall on his sword.

One man's view.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I get it. 16/17 was by far the best team and then it went downhill. Subsequent achievements were amazing really. I still have no clue how we got to that CL final, apart from the size of the player bonuses. That will motivate an Eriksen on a Wednesday even though he just couldn't be arsed on the Saturday afternoon. Him and a bunch of other prima donnas that Poch had let get way too comfortable.

I have always backed Poch staunchly over finally putting his foot down with Levy and his recruitment team. They couldn't close a door at the time, and get Poch one credible player. It's also interesting that all these fans blaming Poch for signing nobody also can't come up with a single name that we could have signed. The best I've heard was Tielemans and he's definitely no world beater. From the summer of 2017, every transfer window was compromised.

The other aspect is the cashflow model Levy CHOSE to put us through. Fans talk as if he didn't have choices and that was our destiny. Levy said that our plan was to have CL football as the stadium opened. In reality, Poch gave him 2 or 3 pots of incremental CL revenues and Levy still held him to zero net spending. Levy would then post record profits and give HMRC a nice Christmas present rather than spend it on players. So how did Levy go to a multi-year projection with no CL football on it to one with it multiple times and still say the football operations and stadium were different pots? Smart people just aren't born yesterday on this stuff. It was seriously bad multi-year cashflow management from the very top.

Back to Poch though. He had lost his coaching principles on his preferred football philosophy and become way too accommodating to his players. His best years were with 4-2-3-1 and even 3-5-2. I couldn't even tell you what he finished up playing as it was all over the shop. He had never disciplined Sonny into defending properly, a problem we still have today. We would see guys like Davies high and wide as the ball hit our net and we we had completely lost our double pivot in midfield. Our left side was a sieve. The midfield unit was core to everything Poch had achieved perviously and Poch stopped focusing on it. Sissoko was just playing with his heart and not using his brain at all, leaving his midfield team mates doing the water carrying for him. The madness of Poch not coaching properly.

I seriously found it hard to defend Poch at the end. Aside from the all of the off-field stuff, he had stopped doing the very thing we needed him for unfortunately. Even if I go back to the argument that "any football ops 2-in-the-box model with Levy as one of them is a mess" argument, Poch couldn't hide on the pure coach related stuff. At least for me. He had to fall on his sword.

One man's view.

We got to the CL final with the worst record of any team to ever get there
On the knockouts we were ahead do about 60 minutes in total over all the games (or some daft stat)
But we still got there. We deserved to get there too and we were robbed of a final because of the ref and IMO very poor scheduling of when the game was
brick happens
Poch didn’t change his coaches and that really hurt him imo
I’ve heard may ex players say they needed a new voice
That’s what the best managers do , they change their coaches

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm no financial expert but leading up to the stadium build I'd guess it would've been important that Levy showed that we were financially secure and were safe to lend money to. Even if it lead to 0.5% of a reduction in interest rates it would be a huge saving over the life time of the loans, a lot more than that paid in tax. And I don't think anyone is delighted about giving tax away. Liverpool also ran a large profit around the same time and I think that was when they were expanding their main stand so again loans would've been involved. Someone like @Finney Is Back would probably have a lot more knowledge around that.

EBITDA is typically the most important thing. Though I suspect the club were also trying to build a positive cash position as loan covenants will often require base levels of liquidity reserves.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We got to the CL final with the worst record of any team to ever get there
On the knockouts we were ahead do about 60 minutes in total over all the games (or some daft stat)
But we still got there. We deserved to get there too and we were robbed of a final because of the ref and IMO very poor scheduling of when the game was
brick happens
Poch didn’t change his coaches and that really hurt him imo
I’ve heard may ex players say they needed a new voice
That’s what the best managers do , they change their coaches

Were we not ahead from early in the second half in the first half against Dortmund and then remaining so until the end nd of the second leg?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Were we not ahead from early in the second half in the first half against Dortmund and then remaining so until the end nd of the second leg?

Pass
It’s a random stat that we qualified for the final whilst being ahead for the last amount of time of anyone

 

[Bishop]

only for the last 3/4 years though, before that they had a couple of seasons fighting relegation, before that, they weren't even in the PL

we've been in and around the CL places for most of the last 20 years

if Brighton keep that up, fair play

I don't think he's comparing the "success" but the methodology. They have stuck to the same model without a hiccup whereas we have had multiple leaps from one model and playing style to another. Now of course you can't compare us to Brighton we are one of biggest clubs the country where are is where should and that is to Levy's credit but actually take any opportunities to continue progressing they arrise with good decisions and everyone will be happy.

 

[thfcsteff]

I get it. 16/17 was by far the best team and then it went downhill. Subsequent achievements were amazing really. I still have no clue how we got to that CL final, apart from the size of the player bonuses. That will motivate an Eriksen on a Wednesday even though he just couldn't be arsed on the Saturday afternoon. Him and a bunch of other prima donnas that Poch had let get way too comfortable.

I have always backed Poch staunchly over finally putting his foot down with Levy and his recruitment team. They couldn't close a door at the time, and get Poch one credible player. It's also interesting that all these fans blaming Poch for signing nobody also can't come up with a single name that we could have signed. The best I've heard was Tielemans and he's definitely no world beater. From the summer of 2017, every transfer window was compromised.

The other aspect is the cashflow model Levy CHOSE to put us through. Fans talk as if he didn't have choices and that was our destiny. Levy said that our plan was to have CL football as the stadium opened. In reality, Poch gave him 2 or 3 pots of incremental CL revenues and Levy still held him to zero net spending. Levy would then post record profits and give HMRC a nice Christmas present rather than spend it on players. So how did Levy go to a multi-year projection with no CL football on it to one with it multiple times and still say the football operations and stadium were different pots? Smart people just aren't born yesterday on this stuff. It was seriously bad multi-year cashflow management from the very top.

Back to Poch though. He had lost his coaching principles on his preferred football philosophy and become way too accommodating to his players. His best years were with 4-2-3-1 and even 3-5-2. I couldn't even tell you what he finished up playing as it was all over the shop. He had never disciplined Sonny into defending properly, a problem we still have today. We would see guys like Davies high and wide as the ball hit our net and we we had completely lost our double pivot in midfield. Our left side was a sieve. The midfield unit was core to everything Poch had achieved perviously and Poch stopped focusing on it. Sissoko was just playing with his heart and not using his brain at all, leaving his midfield team mates doing the water carrying for him. The madness of Poch not coaching properly.

I seriously found it hard to defend Poch at the end. Aside from the all of the off-field stuff, he had stopped doing the very thing we needed him for unfortunately. Even if I go back to the argument that "any football ops 2-in-the-box model with Levy as one of them is a mess" argument, Poch couldn't hide on the pure coach related stuff. At least for me. He had to fall on his sword.

One man's view.

It is known that Poch told Levy we should sell Eriksen once it was clear he would not sign a new deal (they had lunch in CPH at which moment Poch realised he was not in, this a concequence of fall-out between Eriksen and Levy). As we know, he wanted Grealish, had Grealish, Daniel looked to shave a little more off a done-deal and we ended up losing him. Remember, too, Poch wanted to sell Toby as he felt he'd lost something. Moussa? Let's face it, that Poch got anything from him is incredible. Remember, he came at the end of that summer window when neither Mane or Winaldjum ended up with us, we lost Mitchell, and Daniel presented Moussa on deadline day.

Poch was definitely in a 'war of attrition' at the end, hindsight makes that clearer to me than it was at the time for sure. The right thing would've been summer departure, the other right thing would've been backing him through at least that season. As we know, covid changed everything. I have pondered how Poch would've done with (essentially) the break and reset? Still, history now and a discussion which will never grow old!

 

[Baleforce]

I don't think he's comparing the "success" but the methodology. They have stuck to the same model without a hiccup whereas we have had multiple leaps from one model and playing style to another. Now of course you can't compare us to Brighton we are one of biggest clubs the country where are is where should and that is to Levy's credit but actually take any opportunities to continue progressing they arrise with good decisions and everyone will be happy.

Yes, but it’s only been a couple of years.

Let’s see if they are still in this position in another 5.

 

[Bishop]

Yes, but it’s only been a couple of years.

Let’s see if they are still in this position in another 5.

It's not really about their position it's about them following the same script, which allows for repeatable kpis.