Daniel Levy - Chairman

[braineclipse]

I think the conflict here is that when things go wrong the fanbase tends to micro analyse anything & everything and then look to dish out blame for each and every decision, whereas when things are going well it's judged as a period of time rather than the many small things which contributed to it being so.

Definitely. We're still talking about the signings we didn't make or got wrong 10 years ago...

That and a differing viewpoint on how many and what kind of mistakes people think are "acceptable". I'm pretty much expecting half of managerial appointments to be relatively unsuccessful.

Though some of it I also think is people blaming him for actually trusting the managers and directors of football type people.

 

[billyiddo]

I disagree - look at how positive this forum was during the Poch years, whilst also having balanced discussion on some of the same negatives that funnily enough still get spoken about now.

But am happy for someone who as time to prove otherwise. This place is quite a beacon of ongoing detailed discussion, both on the "good" things and the "bad" things.

I think you're not quite understanding my point.

 

[Bishop]

No it's a reflection of how people react to positive & negative scenarios. I would absolutely guarantee that comparable situations, one being positive and the other negative that it would be the negative one that has more (much much more) discussion on it, both in the short term & the long term

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

 

[Bishop]

Definitely. We're still talking about the signings we didn't make or got wrong 10 years ago...

That and a differing viewpoint on how many and what kind of mistakes people think are "acceptable". I'm pretty much expecting half of managerial appointments to be relatively unsuccessful.

Though some of it I also think is people blaming him for actually trusting the managers and directors of football type people.

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce"

 

[billyiddo]

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Very true. The result of that however can be a skewed view of the past, with the negatives and the failures outweighing the positives and the successes (due to how we focus on the smaller details when things go wrong) Logically for us to be where we are after 20 years, (a better position than we were) there must have been an equal or greater number of things that went right vs what went wrong.

 

[Bishop]

Very true. The result of that however can be a skewed view of the past, with the negatives and the failures outweighing the positives and the successes (due to how we focus on the smaller details when things go wrong) Logically for us to be where we are after 20 years, (a better position than we were) there must have been an equal or greater number of things that went right vs what went wrong.

I don't think the argument is (well at least not from me) that we have done more wrong that right rather that we haven't maximised the opportunities that have presented themselves and that we could have made better decisions at those times.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree - look at how positive this forum was during the Poch years, whilst also having balanced discussion on some of the same negatives that funnily enough still get spoken about now.

But am happy for someone who as time to prove otherwise. This place is quite a beacon of ongoing detailed discussion, both on the "good" things and the "bad" things.

That was pochs greatest achievement
Uniting a very fragmented club

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That was pochs greatest achievement
Uniting a very fragmented club

.....but it's really obvious why that happened.

 

[Muttley]

I don't think the argument is (well at least not from me) that we have done more wrong that right rather that we haven't maximised the opportunities that have presented themselves and that we could have made better decisions at those times.

That's how I think about it.

Is the football operations optimised based on it's natural parameters? I've asked myself that question so many times over the decades, and there have been so many times when I've not come up with a favourable answer due to bad football decisions. I'm also talking about the P&L.

An example is when everyone was declaring victory that Spurs had just posted the world record profit of £113m for a football club. I happened to mention that corporation tax was at 20% and we had just given HMRC £23m that could have been used by the club if had managed our finances better over multiple years. I obviously got shot down by fans who think Levy is some sort of financial genius. He wasn't and still isn't. He'd just got his modelling wrong on his spreadsheet just like other business owners do every day. He would never admit, but he hated giving that corporation tax away and not buying a player or having that money in his salaries budget.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

.....but it's really obvious why that happened.

Is it ?
To me it was a multitude of things so I’d be interested in what you think
As I say, for me it was his biggest achievement and why he didn’t work elsewhere. All clubs are different and the maturity of each has a big factor
It’s why I was broken when we fired him. I got why we did but I didn’t want it
But that’s bro the point I guess

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That's how I think about it.

Is the football operations optimised based on it's natural parameters? I've asked myself that question so many times over the decades, and there have been so many times when I've not come up with a favourable answer due to bad football decisions. I'm also talking about the P&L.

An example is when everyone was declaring victory that Spurs had just posted the world record profit of £113m for a football club. I happened to mention that corporation tax was at 20% and we had just given HMRC £23m that could have been used by the club if had managed our finances better over multiple years. I obviously got shot down by fans who think Levy is some sort of financial genius. He wasn't and still isn't. He'd just got his modelling wrong on his spreadsheet just like other business owners do every day. He would never admit, but he hated giving that corporation tax away and not buying a player or having that money in his salaries budget.

No clubs wants to make money
The tax burden as you say makes it stupid
But that year, that profit helped with the loan deals needed for the ground (IMO)

 

[DubSpur]

That's how I think about it.

Is the football operations optimised based on it's natural parameters? I've asked myself that question so many times over the decades, and there have been so many times when I've not come up with a favourable answer due to bad football decisions. I'm also talking about the P&L.

An example is when everyone was declaring victory that Spurs had just posted the world record profit of £113m for a football club. I happened to mention that corporation tax was at 20% and we had just given HMRC £23m that could have been used by the club if had managed our finances better over multiple years. I obviously got shot down by fans who think Levy is some sort of financial genius. He wasn't and still isn't. He'd just got his modelling wrong on his spreadsheet just like other business owners do every day. He would never admit, but he hated giving that corporation tax away and not buying a player or having that money in his salaries budget.

I'm no financial expert but leading up to the stadium build I'd guess it would've been important that Levy showed that we were financially secure and were safe to lend money to. Even if it lead to 0.5% of a reduction in interest rates it would be a huge saving over the life time of the loans, a lot more than that paid in tax. And I don't think anyone is delighted about giving tax away. Liverpool also ran a large profit around the same time and I think that was when they were expanding their main stand so again loans would've been involved. Someone like @Finney Is Back would probably have a lot more knowledge around that.

 

[braineclipse]

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

The key is not remembering the past, but what you remember and how you interpret it.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think the argument is (well at least not from me) that we have done more wrong that right rather that we haven't maximised the opportunities that have presented themselves and that we could have made better decisions at those times.

On that I don't think you'll find many, if any, on here that disagree with you.

For me it's in part a question of how many "could have made better decisions" situations should we expect over 20+ years. Personally I would expect quite a few, even from someone good at their job. And even more from someone "average". To me Levy seems significantly better than average and I would expect anyone replacing him to be average, on average.

 

[braineclipse]

@Grays_1890 see what I'm saying about Teflon?

But Fergie wasn't sacked was he? All the speculation and rumours in the world don't change the fact it didn't happen. When push came to shove and a decision could be made Edwards the football made the right decision.

With regards to Poch I'm not even claiming he shouldn't have been sacked, the issue is who he replaced him with. Jose at that point was a used flush it was so obvious. To the extent people on our fan base were arguing that what he needed to restart the fire was a lower level club than he was used to like us.

Again the point is the football man that Levy is couldn't see after his last disaster season at Chelsea and really his entire United spell that no this was not the man for us. Tactically he didn't suit the squad we had, character wise our players didn't suit him either. So rather than getting a coach of a similar mindset and tactical setup as Poch to reinvigorate the existing squad and continue the system we already had Levy couldn't see this and went for a polar opposite probably not realising how unsuited we were as a pairing. It was an awful decision on his part and one a football man would not have made and that's the point.

Someone adding a different perspective to yours doesn't mean that it's "Teflon". That accusation could just as easily be pointed the other way.

Dub brought up an imo clearly valid point about the luck involved in these decisions. You didn't engage with or acknowledge that point at all.

I'm not gonna spend time defending the appointment of Mourinho. But part of the reason Pochettino's reign ended like it did was that we no longer had a squad that suited his mindset and tactical setup. We had a star striker in Kane no longer capable of the same level of pressing. We had moved from two of the best ball playing centre backs in the world to Davinson Sanchez. We had just spent a record breaking transfer fee on a midfielder with a very limited work rate (after success with the super intense Dembele and Wanyama).

Unless a new manager with the same philosophy as Pochettino was brought in to rip everything up, sell Kane and rebuild from scratch I don't think that would have worked out short term either.

We sacrificed the long term for short term punts at success. That was a mistake for sure, probably would have been regardless of who we brought in as a manager. But I can understand taking that punt at that time (again, my defending Mourinho as such, but the direction we took).

 

[Bishop]

On that I don't think you'll find many, if any, on here that disagree with you.

For me it's in part a question of how many "could have made better decisions" situations should we expect over 20+ years. Personally I would expect quite a few, even from someone good at their job. And even more from someone "average". To me Levy seems significantly better than average and I would expect anyone replacing him to be average, on average.

I guess where we disagree is that I don't believe he's above average in that regard. I don't claim to be any sort of footballing savant but there have just been too many really obvious opportunities that had predictable outcomes for me to call him anything but average when it's come to the actual football side of operations.

We are going old ground but at least you get a feel for why I and maybe others who have my viewpoint have quite a strong degree of scepticism with regards to ENIC and project Tottenham. I can't lie I just don't believe that winning is what is important to them. It would be nice, but it's not the sole burning desire.

I admit as well I have very high standards, you may have noticed with my stance on our players, tactical approach etc but I make no apologies for this. Accepting mediocrity will just make you...mediocre.