Black Lives Matter

[Diamond Lights]

You don't know what it's like to be black lad growing up on Watford council estate any more than I do.

Bang on, as i posted other day, how does a Asian person know what it's like to be Black, how does a Black person know what it's like to be disabled, what does a disabled person know what it's like to be gay.

Just because someone's in a minority does not cross-correlate to another minority with an entirely different background and lifestyle. Surprised it needs explaining so frequently tbh...

 

[parklane1]

Depends on what the statue is celebrating.

If the statue is celebrating their work as a slave trader, then obviously I agree. However, if the statue is celebrating good work they did and they happened to be a slave trader, then I see that no differently to banning a book or a film because it uses contextual language from the time it was written.

Despite what the extreme left are constantly trying to do, not everyone or everything can be solely categorised into good or bad - the world isn't that black and white (not intended). If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards then there won't be much history left at all and nothing to prompt education or reflection.

This.

 

[Diamond Lights]

So again, did any of you complain when the Saville statue was taken down? Because he did raise money for charity.

Just seems a bit hyporcritical you dont mind some statues being taken down but not others. Who decides exactly?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

So again, did any of you complain when the Saville statue was taken down? Because he did raise money for charity.

Just seems a bit hyporcritical you dont mind some statues being taken down but not others. Who decides exactly?

It was the Michael Jackson one that did it for me.....a trip to Craven Cottage will never be the same.....how dare they!

Shamone!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So again, did any of you complain when the Saville statue was taken down? Because he did raise money for charity.

Just seems a bit hyporcritical you dont mind some statues being taken down but not others. Who decides exactly?

That was taken down before it was damaged and it’s the same with them moving his body
Funny story was the porn shop that had a saville brick removed as it was one they brought via a charity thing

 

[AuroRaman]

So again, did any of you complain when the Saville statue was taken down? Because he did raise money for charity.

Just seems a bit hyporcritical you dont mind some statues being taken down but not others. Who decides exactly?

I'm amused by how affronted some are by it. Meanwhile the black community in Bristol have been campaigning to have it removed for years to deaf ears.

 

[Diamond Lights]

I'm amused by how affronted some are by it. Meanwhile the black community in Bristol have been campaigning to have it removed for years to deaf ears.

It's absolute banter. We shouldn't take down Statues of people no bugger (me included) had a clue existed until earlier this week... to teach these people about history? Fully aware people in Bristol DID know of him hence their campaigning last few years.

"Did you know who Edward Colston was?"

er...

"So we'll take down the statue then..."

NO HOW DARE YOU. YOU'RE REMOVING HISTORY.

 

[thfcsteff]

Depends on what the statue is celebrating.

If the statue is celebrating their work as a slave trader, then obviously I agree. However, if the statue is celebrating good work they did and they happened to be a slave trader, then I see that no differently to banning a book or a film because it uses contextual language from the time it was written.

Despite what the extreme left are constantly trying to do, not everyone or everything can be solely categorised into good or bad - the world isn't that black and white (not intended). If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards then there won't be much history left at all and nothing to prompt education or reflection.

"Despite what the left is doing the world isn't black or white"?
In many cases.
When it comes to racism -or tolerance of it/ it is.
If someone did "good work" but also "happened to be a slave trader" then, err, no. They don't deserve a statue or anything.

I think it is important that we remember history -and people- as they were. I agree with that. Because at some point we have to learn from our mistakes. We must.

I would also advise against only calling out "the extreme left" for their perceived actions. The extreme right are doing a great job propagating racism, division and chaos.

 

[thfcsteff]

Fairly sure that his actions were considered reprehensible at the time they were committed.

Savile?
No one batted a fudging eyelid other than Jerry Sadowitz who called him out and was ignored!

 

[thfcsteff]

Watford’s hardly t

I'd certainly agree about a lack of education - especially in state schools. But this is a fleeting event - one that will be forgotten by most as soon as the next series of I'm a Celebrity starts.

I'd say the removal has done more to legitimise the forcible removal of anything a mob doesn't like than anything. That's not a good outcome.

You make a point in that first paragraph that deeply worries me as I think you are spot-on; that this could end up being forgotten in weeks.

IMO we cannot afford to let that happen if we really want change...

 

[StephenH]

What we must guard against is letting our encouragement for knowledge of history be mistaken as condoning or promoting of events.

 

[scaramanga]

"Despite what the left is doing the world isn't black or white"?
In many cases.
When it comes to racism -or tolerance of it/ it is.
If someone did "good work" but also "happened to be a slave trader" then, err, no. They don't deserve a statue or anything.

I think it is important that we remember history -and people- as they were. I agree with that. Because at some point we have to learn from our mistakes. We must.

I would also advise against only calling out "the extreme left" for their perceived actions. The extreme right are doing a great job propagating racism, division and chaos.

I'll leave it to you to call the Cairo museum and convince them to melt down Tutankhamun's mask then?

 

[scaramanga]

Savile?
No one batted a fudging eyelid other than Jerry Sadowitz who called him out and was ignored!

Nobody criticised Saville for being a nonce? I don't think you read the press.

 

[scaramanga]

As was slavery.

Thomas Clarkson wrote 'The History, Rise, Progress and Accomplishment of the Abolition of the African Slave Trade by the British Parliament' in 1808.

William Cowper wrote a famous poem called 'The Negro's Complaint' (1788).

Granville Sharp developed a reputation for taking up in court the cases of fugitive slaves around the 1800s.

And of course William Wilberforce is well documented as having spent years in parliament against slavery.

Just because Slavery occured more commonly in those days, it's absolutely incorrect to assume that many saw it as a societal norm.

But back to the subject at hand. Did you complain where they took down the Jimmy Saville statue? He did a lot for charity after all so you must have the hump they took it down?

I'm sure you'll find plenty of quotes from people against slavery at the time, just as you could find many prominent people speaking out against capitalism now, despite it being the way the entire world works.

Fact is that Colston died well over 100 years before slavery was abolished in the UK, it was common all over the world and, at the time he was alive, common practice.

The Saville statue is different for two reasons:

1. Nobody accepted raping children in the years Saville was around. It was considered as much of an abomination then as it is now. This is not the case with slavery in the 16/1700s.
2. The people who had the right to remove the statue removed it, not an angry group of vandals

So yes, I supported the removal of Saville's statue. I would be less concerned about Colston's had it been removed via the proper channels. I believe there was a petition to have it removed in recent years and not enough people gave a fudge to get it removed until it became an excuse to smash some stuff up.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Bang on, as i posted other day, how does a Asian person know what it's like to be Black, how does a Black person know what it's like to be disabled, what does a disabled person know what it's like to be gay.

Just because someone's in a minority does not cross-correlate to another minority with an entirely different background and lifestyle. Surprised it needs explaining so frequently tbh...

I'm not sure anyone believes that. Though I'm sure it's a useful accusation to level to make some sound silly.
What those minorities are very likely to have in common is a shared understanding of discrimination. And the empathy that arises from it. Which is my experience.

 

[scaramanga]

"Despite what the left is doing the world isn't black or white"?
In many cases.
When it comes to racism -or tolerance of it/ it is.
If someone did "good work" but also "happened to be a slave trader" then, err, no. They don't deserve a statue or anything.

I think it is important that we remember history -and people- as they were. I agree with that. Because at some point we have to learn from our mistakes. We must.

I would also advise against only calling out "the extreme left" for their perceived actions. The extreme right are doing a great job propagating racism, division and chaos.

I agree with your last paragraph, bit it's not the extreme right tearing down statues and attacking the police (when the weather's good).

 

[Diamond Lights]

I agree with your last paragraph, bit it's not the extreme right tearing down statues and attacking the police (when the weather's good).

i mean in the US, the far right and specifically white supremacists have been responsible for more mass murders domestically than any foreign related terrorism. Probably a bit worse than tearing down statues. If you're fussed about attacks on police then maybe don't look at EDL protests either because pretty sure the Tommy Robinson demo was extreme right.

 

[Grays_1890]

i mean in the US, the far right and specifically white supremacists have been responsible for more mass murders domestically than any foreign related terrorism. Probably a bit worse than tearing down statues. If you're fussed about attacks on police then maybe don't look at EDL protests either because pretty sure the Tommy Robinson demo was extreme right.

Let’s be clear any attack on the police left or right is a shower of utter excrement.

 

[Grays_1890]

Bang on, as i posted other day, how does a Asian person know what it's like to be Black, how does a Black person know what it's like to be disabled, what does a disabled person know what it's like to be gay.

Just because someone's in a minority does not cross-correlate to another minority with an entirely different background and lifestyle. Surprised it needs explaining so frequently tbh...

I don’t think that it’s ethnicity exclusive though, I know plenty of black kids who have had extremely privileged backgrounds who would know as much as me about being black in Watford, they wouldn’t have an advantage of knowledge because of their skin tone in my opinion.

I think Joshuas experiences would be best shared of how he made it good and how the opportunities are there if you work hard rather than promoting the divide.

 

[scaramanga]

i mean in the US, the far right and specifically white supremacists have been responsible for more mass murders domestically than any foreign related terrorism. Probably a bit worse than tearing down statues. If you're fussed about attacks on police then maybe don't look at EDL protests either because pretty sure the Tommy Robinson demo was extreme right.

So your argument is along the lines of "They did it so why can't we?"

That's a fairly weak one really. The far left and far right are as bad as each other.