Black Lives Matter

[scaramanga]

The main organised protests in London finished on Sunday.

That fitted nicely with the weather, didn't it?

 

[scaramanga]

Same as when the weather is good.

Glad to hear it. So it's only attacking the police and damaging property that stops mattering when the weather gets bad.

That really is excellent news.

 

[AuroRaman]

That fitted nicely with the weather, didn't it?

If it makes you feel better to think that then sure, why not.

 

[thfcsteff]

I chose to address one line for the simple reason that was the part of your post I found questionable. Isn't that how these things work?[/

From my perspective it depends on

a) whether someone wants to engage in a discussion
b) whether someone cares enough to have a discussion

If these are not discussions or exchanges then you are, indeed, correct.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yes!
But how many ‘Good old Brits’ have been like that with the ‘ Pakies on the corner‘ and the like!
There is an element of ‘why not’ Imho and what’s good for the goose etc.
Being discriminated against funnily doesn’t leave you with a balanced warm fuzzy feelings. I can assure you!

Trust me on that last sentence, I saw it too many times with my Dad.

 

[thfcsteff]

It appears that for many, it is preferable to ignore or forget history than to challenge and discuss it.

I would agree that we have to find a balance between ignorant celebration and ignoring. It has to be done properly as I agree, history must be seen and available for challenge and discussion. There are ways of doing that though, and slave trader statues are not the best route IMO.

 

[StephenH]

Yeh irony is he was a gang member and realised that the only person discriminating against him was himself with his actions. From then on he became a multi millionaire boxer promoted by a white man and by a channel whose boxing schedule is chosen by a white man. Ohhhhhhh the shame of it all

I wonder what it was like for him growing up. Being a teenager in Watford back in the day was no walk in the park, I would have thought. Joining gangs is sad and looks to be part of survival for many both white and black. Your money comment is sad and makes you a look like a plank.

 

[scaramanga]

I would agree that we have to find a balance between ignorant celebration and ignoring. It has to be done properly as I agree, history must be seen and available for challenge and discussion. There are ways of doing that though, and slave trader statues are not the best route IMO.

Depends on what the statue is celebrating.

If the statue is celebrating their work as a slave trader, then obviously I agree. However, if the statue is celebrating good work they did and they happened to be a slave trader, then I see that no differently to banning a book or a film because it uses contextual language from the time it was written.

Despite what the extreme left are constantly trying to do, not everyone or everything can be solely categorised into good or bad - the world isn't that black and white (not intended). If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards then there won't be much history left at all and nothing to prompt education or reflection.

 

[AuroRaman]

Depends on what the statue is celebrating.

If the statue is celebrating their work as a slave trader, then obviously I agree. However, if the statue is celebrating good work they did and they happened to be a slave trader, then I see that no differently to banning a book or a film because it uses contextual language from the time it was written.

Despite what the extreme left are constantly trying to do, not everyone or everything can be solely categorised into good or bad - the world isn't that black and white (not intended). If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards then there won't be much history left at all and nothing to prompt education or reflection.

The very act of the statue being thrown into the bottom of a river has prompted more education and reflection in one action than all the preceding years from when it was erected up to that point.

 

[scaramanga]

The very act of the statue being thrown into the bottom of a river has prompted more education and reflection in one action than all the preceding years from when it was erected up to that point.

I'd certainly agree about a lack of education - especially in state schools. But this is a fleeting event - one that will be forgotten by most as soon as the next series of I'm a Celebrity starts.

I'd say the removal has done more to legitimise the forcible removal of anything a mob doesn't like than anything. That's not a good outcome.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Depends on what the statue is celebrating.

If the statue is celebrating their work as a slave trader, then obviously I agree. However, if the statue is celebrating good work they did and they happened to be a slave trader, then I see that no differently to banning a book or a film because it uses contextual language from the time it was written.

Despite what the extreme left are constantly trying to do, not everyone or everything can be solely categorised into good or bad - the world isn't that black and white (not intended). If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards then there won't be much history left at all and nothing to prompt education or reflection.

 

[scaramanga]

View attachment 8750

If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards ....

Fairly sure that his actions were considered reprehensible at the time they were committed.

 

[AuroRaman]

I'd certainly agree about a lack of education - especially in state schools. But this is a fleeting event - one that will be forgotten by most as soon as the next series of I'm a Celebrity starts.

I'd say the removal has done more to legitimise the forcible removal of anything a mob doesn't like than anything. That's not a good outcome.

I understand your stance. I think to be clearer, this event has created a positive ripple for educational and/or institutional reflection and reform. Whether anything is implemented, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Fairly sure that his actions were considered reprehensible at the time they were committed.

As was slavery.

Thomas Clarkson wrote 'The History, Rise, Progress and Accomplishment of the Abolition of the African Slave Trade by the British Parliament' in 1808.

William Cowper wrote a famous poem called 'The Negro's Complaint' (1788).

Granville Sharp developed a reputation for taking up in court the cases of fugitive slaves around the 1800s.

And of course William Wilberforce is well documented as having spent years in parliament against slavery.

Just because Slavery occured more commonly in those days, it's absolutely incorrect to assume that many saw it as a societal norm.

But back to the subject at hand. Did you complain where they took down the Jimmy Saville statue? He did a lot for charity after all so you must have the hump they took it down?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Trust me on that last sentence, I saw it too many times with my Dad.

I get it my dad was a tw*t as well, but you still should not have called him that.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

View attachment 8750

Now then now then.

 

[Grays_1890]

Depends on what the statue is celebrating.

If the statue is celebrating their work as a slave trader, then obviously I agree. However, if the statue is celebrating good work they did and they happened to be a slave trader, then I see that no differently to banning a book or a film because it uses contextual language from the time it was written.

Despite what the extreme left are constantly trying to do, not everyone or everything can be solely categorised into good or bad - the world isn't that black and white (not intended). If we retrospectively judge historical people with modern standards then there won't be much history left at all and nothing to prompt education or reflection.

Spot on

 

[Grays_1890]

I wonder what it was like for him growing up. Being a teenager in Watford back in the day was no walk in the park, I would have thought. Joining gangs is sad and looks to be part of survival for many both white and black. Your money comment is sad and makes you a look like a plank.

Watford’s hardly the Ghetto and the money comment refers to the fact there are opportunities out there and it’s not like he makes out it is.

 

[JerusalemMan]

As was slavery.

Thomas Clarkson wrote 'The History, Rise, Progress and Accomplishment of the Abolition of the African Slave Trade by the British Parliament' in 1808.

William Cowper wrote a famous poem called 'The Negro's Complaint' (1788).

Granville Sharp developed a reputation for taking up in court the cases of fugitive slaves around the 1800s.

And of course William Wilberforce is well documented as having spent years in parliament against slavery.

Just because Slavery occured more commonly in those days, it's absolutely incorrect to assume that many saw it as a societal norm.

But back to the subject at hand. Did you complain where they took down the Jimmy Saville statue? He did a lot for charity after all so you must have the hump they took it down?

Occurred more commonly...it was a near-global practice. Those four things you cite were kicks against the establishment, protesting against a societal norm that they wished to change. And change they did, Sharp was of course one of the first campaigners. But as one of the first he was not in the majority, though instrumental in helping turn the tide.
If you are claiming that the general view at the time of slavery was much the same as the general view of sexual abuse of children when the Savile revelations occurred...then I fear that's a stretch to only make if you are reaching to support an argument rather than reflect reality.

 

[StephenH]

Watford’s hardly the Ghetto and the money comment refers to the fact there are opportunities out there and it’s not like he makes out it is.

You don't know what it's like to be black lad growing up on Watford council estate any more than I do.