Black Lives Matter

[JerusalemMan]

Haven't they just taken it (GWTW) down while they add some blurb to it to explain that everyone was a daft racist, before putting it back again?

I believe that's exactly it. And that seems right.
In the same way that Tom & Jerry cartoons have caveat text attached to them.

It's a very different thing if entire shows or films from a different time are pulled because they don't meet our present cultural norms. That then starts to smack of re-writing or blanking out bits of history.

“... every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”‬
‪George Orwell, 1984‬

 

[Diamond Lights]

At no point has anyone asked for history to be re-written. At no point, is anyone attempting to 'forget' history. I know what Hitler did, despite there not being a statue of him. I know what the Romans did, funnily enough there's not a statue telling me what they did.

How many here were faux-outraged at the removal of Colston statue? Definitely a few. How exactly did a Statue of Colston teach you anything about history, pray tell thee? Most of us, including me, knew nothing of the man if I had walked past. Did you honestly speaking know there was a statue of Colston who was a slave trader?

Now i have read about him, how he was a slave trader responsbile for 100,000 slaves transferred to the States, around 20,000 of which died en route. That wasn't a statue that told me that. It was researching him online, so a statue didn't do diddly squat, and tearing it down has absolutely zero bearing on history. In fact, tearing it down is the reason now everyone knows him. We know what he did, we don't need a momento to it though do we?

As that meme going around, let's stick a statue of Jimmy Saville up, you know, he did raise money for charity after all.

Funny thing is when that Saddam statue was toppled, many of you on here were like "oh great, look at that", happens to a white slave trader in UK though, all of a sudden you don't agree with it. Just admit you're full of hypocisy and basically will tinkle whereever the wind blows to make your point.

 

[glasgowspur]

At no point has anyone asked for history to be re-written. At no point, is anyone attempting to 'forget' history. I know what Hitler did, despite there not being a statue of him. I know what the Romans did, funnily enough there's not a statue telling me what they did.

How many here were faux-outraged at the removal of Colston statue? Definitely a few. How exactly did a Statue of Colston teach you anything about history, pray tell thee? Most of us, including me, knew nothing of the man if I had walked past. Did you honestly speaking know there was a statue of Colston who was a slave trader?

Now i have read about him, how he was a slave trader responsbile for 100,000 slaves transferred to the States, around 20,000 of which died en route. That wasn't a statue that told me that. It was researching him online, so a statue didn't do diddly squat, and tearing it down has absolutely zero bearing on history. In fact, tearing it down is the reason now everyone knows him. We know what he did, we don't need a momento to it though do we?

As that meme going around, let's stick a statue of Jimmy Saville up, you know, he did raise money for charity after all.

Funny thing is when that Saddam statue was toppled, many of you on here were like "oh great, look at that", happens to a white slave trader in UK though, all of a sudden you don't agree with it. Just admit you're full of hypocisy and basically will tinkle whereever the wind blows to make your point.

I don't agree with the way it was taken down, but from what I've read and the pressure exerted before hand to have it removed i can't say I'm to bothered about the how.

 

[scaramanga]

At no point has anyone asked for history to be re-written. At no point, is anyone attempting to 'forget' history. I know what Hitler did, despite there not being a statue of him. I know what the Romans did, funnily enough there's not a statue telling me what they did.

How many here were faux-outraged at the removal of Colston statue? Definitely a few. How exactly did a Statue of Colston teach you anything about history, pray tell thee? Most of us, including me, knew nothing of the man if I had walked past. Did you honestly speaking know there was a statue of Colston who was a slave trader?

Now i have read about him, how he was a slave trader responsbile for 100,000 slaves transferred to the States, around 20,000 of which died en route. That wasn't a statue that told me that. It was researching him online, so a statue didn't do diddly squat, and tearing it down has absolutely zero bearing on history. In fact, tearing it down is the reason now everyone knows him. We know what he did, we don't need a momento to it though do we?

As that meme going around, let's stick a statue of Jimmy Saville up, you know, he did raise money for charity after all.

Funny thing is when that Saddam statue was toppled, many of you on here were like "oh great, look at that", happens to a white slave trader in UK though, all of a sudden you don't agree with it. Just admit you're full of hypocisy and basically will tinkle whereever the wind blows to make your point.

The pyramids were built by slaves, we should probably tear them down while we're at it....

 

[SpurMeUp]

At no point has anyone asked for history to be re-written. At no point, is anyone attempting to 'forget' history. I know what Hitler did, despite there not being a statue of him. I know what the Romans did, funnily enough there's not a statue telling me what they did.

How many here were faux-outraged at the removal of Colston statue? Definitely a few. How exactly did a Statue of Colston teach you anything about history, pray tell thee? Most of us, including me, knew nothing of the man if I had walked past. Did you honestly speaking know there was a statue of Colston who was a slave trader?

Now i have read about him, how he was a slave trader responsbile for 100,000 slaves transferred to the States, around 20,000 of which died en route. That wasn't a statue that told me that. It was researching him online, so a statue didn't do diddly squat, and tearing it down has absolutely zero bearing on history. In fact, tearing it down is the reason now everyone knows him. We know what he did, we don't need a momento to it though do we?

As that meme going around, let's stick a statue of Jimmy Saville up, you know, he did raise money for charity after all.

Funny thing is when that Saddam statue was toppled, many of you on here were like "oh great, look at that", happens to a white slave trader in UK though, all of a sudden you don't agree with it. Just admit you're full of hypocisy and basically will tinkle whereever the wind blows to make your point.

Point is, are pressure groups and protesters missing a trick? To remove the offensive icons stops people from being reminded. And we need to be. Future generations won't know about Colston. The smart thing to do would be to 'update' statues to reflect the current. To highlight the ills of the past, not remove them necessarily.

 

[StephenH]

Point is, are pressure groups and protesters missing a trick? To remove the offensive icons stops people from being reminded. And we need to be. Future generations won't know about Colston. The smart thing to do would be to 'update' statues to reflect the current. To highlight the ills of the past, not remove them necessarily.

Beat me to it.

"This is yet another slave-trading tosser!" Too strong?

 

[JerusalemMan]

Point is, are pressure groups and protesters missing a trick? To remove the offensive icons stops people from being reminded. And we need to be. Future generations won't know about Colston. The smart thing to do would be to 'update' statues to reflect the current. To highlight the ills of the past, not remove them necessarily.

I like that there had been a display of slaves for months around that statue.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Point is, are pressure groups and protesters missing a trick? To remove the offensive icons stops people from being reminded. And we need to be. Future generations won't know about Colston. The smart thing to do would be to 'update' statues to reflect the current. To highlight the ills of the past, not remove them necessarily.

Did you? Did anyone here? So that's my point, that statue's purpose did f*** all to tell people about what he did. You didn't know until they binned in him the river.

Tell you what, let's build a statue to Bin Laden, so people can be reminded. How does that sound to you, a good idea? I'm just concerned people might forget he wasn't a nice person, so let's immortalise him in bronze so people can be reminded of him and what he did? Future generations might not know, so i cannot for the life of me think of any other way to remember his atrocities than by putting a statue of him standing proudly. Let me know your thoughts, maybe write to your MP and suggest it?

 

[glasgowspur]

Did you? Did anyone here? So that's my point, that statue's purpose did f*** all to tell people about what he did. You didn't know until they binned in him the river.

Tell you what, let's build a statue to Bin Laden, so people can be reminded. How does that sound to you, a good idea? I'm just concerned people might forget he wasn't a nice person, so let's immortalise him in bronze so people can be reminded of him and what he did? Future generations might not know, so i cannot for the life of me think of any other way to remember his atrocities than by putting a statue of him standing proudly. Let me know your thoughts, maybe write to your MP and suggest it?

Most people alive when these statues were put up couldn't give a flying fudge about them because they were erected by self congratulating clams and their cronies who cared little for the common man.
They were erected to cleanse their image. This country, and I dare say many more, have statues all over them to "good men" that were involved in also sorts of profiteering with not a thought to the misery they inflicted.
That's why they've been forgotten, deserve to be forgotten and no one gives a flying fudge about them now.
All these statues should be removed in my opinion.

 

[Grays_1890]

Yes!
But how many ‘Good old Brits’ have been like that with the ‘ Pakies on the corner‘ and the like!
There is an element of ‘why not’ Imho and what’s good for the goose etc.
Being discriminated against funnily doesn’t leave you with a balanced warm fuzzy feelings. I can assure you!

How far back do you want to go? Wowzers

 

[StephenH]

How far back do you want to go? Wowzers

It’s down to each individual!

 

[SpurMeUp]

Did you? Did anyone here? So that's my point, that statue's purpose did f*** all to tell people about what he did. You didn't know until they binned in him the river.

Tell you what, let's build a statue to Bin Laden, so people can be reminded. How does that sound to you, a good idea? I'm just concerned people might forget he wasn't a nice person, so let's immortalise him in bronze so people can be reminded of him and what he did? Future generations might not know, so i cannot for the life of me think of any other way to remember his atrocities than by putting a statue of him standing proudly. Let me know your thoughts, maybe write to your MP and suggest it?

By your logic there is no reason to remove the statue either. Because we didn't know who he is, we should remove the statue? It doesn't really make sense. Now we do know who they are, you want to forget and erase?

Idk I just think a more subtle approach for some of these icons of the past would be smart. You can't erase history, in fact current events show history has impacts still today, so why remove the reminders? Why not adapt them, as Auschwitz has been, into something which reminds and educates?

Anger by itself only does so much. Where are the suggestions and focus on renewal and change, otherwise what is the point?

 

[SpurMeUp]

An excerpt from Sapiens book, https://www.dancollinsandapiano.com/purity-in-america

Its an interesting account/history of the origins of racism in the US. The whole thing is worth a read, but this conclusion indicates why we need to preserve and understand history.

Most sociopolitical hierarchies lack a logical or biological basis – they are nothing but the perpetuation of chance events supported by myths. That is one good reason to study history. If the division into blacks and whites or Brahmins and Shudras was grounded in biological realities – that is, if Brahmins really had better brains than Shudras – biology would be sufficient for understanding human society. Since the biological distinctions between different groups of Homo sapiens are, in fact, negligible, biology can’t explain the intricacies of Indian society or American racial dynamics. We can only understand those phenomena by studying the events, circumstances, and power relations that transformed figments of imagination into cruel – and very real – social structures.

 

[Diamond Lights]

By your logic there is no reason to remove the statue either. Because we didn't know who he is, we should remove the statue? It doesn't really make sense. Now we do know who they are, you want to forget and erase?

Idk I just think a more subtle approach for some of these icons of the past would be smart. You can't erase history, in fact current events show history has impacts still today, so why remove the reminders? Why not adapt them, as Auschwitz has been, into something which reminds and educates?

Anger by itself only does so much. Where are the suggestions and focus on renewal and change, otherwise what is the point?

Sure, I would love to educate fellow British people on the atrocities it has conducted, unfortunately, like in this and other threads, when people raise this, instead of educating themselves, it's batted off as "was that generation though weren't it?" and "why should i be tarred with that brush it was years ago". That's not educating. That's not learning, acknowledging, that's disregarding.

The majority of the British population were polled and believed the Empire was a good thing. How many of those were educated? How many are willing to be educated because from the sounds of this board, it aint many.

Second Boer War - who invented concentration camps before the Germans and put 100,000 people in them? The British.

Amritsar - estimates up to 1000 men, women, children shot dead by the British. Where's the acknowledgement? The apology? The statue for those?

Mau Mau Uprising - Up to 100,000 dead back into those concentration camps. When did you read about Britain using concentration camps EVER?

Bengal Famine (and others) 4 MILLION people (up to 15 million for all other famines) orchestrated purposely by the British. FOUR. MILLION. PEOPLE. Hitler killed 6 million jews, why don't the British get tarred on history with killing millions of people via a different method?

For context,in 'Late Victorian Holocausts', historian Mike Davis points out that here were 31 serious famines in the 120 years of British rule compared with 17 famines in the 2,000 years before British rule. Since Indian Independence, there's been 1 recorded famine. Almost like it wasn't something that happened frequently but was engineered purposely by British rule.

You tell me where all those statues are to the above, all the education is, and I'll happily pipe down.

Lastly, read up on Operation Legacy, the British programme to destroy it's colonial documents relating to their crimes. When did you read up and learn about that in school? That's my point, people want to bang on about 'educating people' with these slave statues, but won't even bother to learn the cold harsh reality of the actual history behind them, just what the Sun and Mail tell them.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Diamond Lights is "educating" telling people they are clams? What progress will be made to cut down barriers and improves lives from that?

There are statues which relate to these events. Ones to commemorate the Boar war, ones of Cecil Rhodes etc. you just told me they should be knocked down. Now you are asking where they are?

There are millions around the globe who are either committed to making change or are listening for the first time in generations, and all you want to do is beat them up for the past? A past they had as much to do with as you. What a waste.

 

[spitshine]

Happy to. I can name 10, based on the Legatum Prosperity Index (no, don't be fooled by the name) covering a wide sector of countries across a range of factors inclduing health, employement etc inclusive of equlity scoring. As I am sure you know, the Scandinavian countries consistently top some of the best and importantly most equal places to live. Of course nowhere is perfect, but these studies are conducted to showcase exactly the breakdown you require.

Of course, you said the word equality, so not sure where that stick lies. If you want to go with say Gender for example, then again, the work is done as any quick Google will tell you, there's a Global Gender Gap Report conducted and shock horror, the UK is not the best place in the world. Who knew? Not the Daily Mail that's for sure.

As you can see clicking here, once again the Scandinavian countries tend to fare highest for equality, in fact on Gender the UK comes in 21st, so there's 20 countries ranked higher. Hope that helps.

Let’s look at that legatum prosperity index and those 10 countries above the uk.
Aside from Germany, we are infinitely more populated than all of these. Luxembourg?! They have a pop of around 650k.
We’re not comparing like for like.

Most of those 10 do not have a history of mass immigration, multiculturalism and the demographic is generally a homogenous one.

 

[scaramanga]

Anyone in central London able to confirm for me how much black lives matter when the weather's a bit brick?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

@Diamond Lights is "educating" telling people they are clams? What progress will be made to cut down barriers and improves lives from that?

There are statues which relate to these events. Ones to commemorate the Boar war, ones of Cecil Rhodes etc. you just told me they should be knocked down. Now you are asking where they are?

There are millions around the globe who are either committed to making change or are listening for the first time in generations, and all you want to do is beat them up for the past? A past they had as much to do with as you. What a waste.

The problem with some of these people lecturing on race are just to sanctimonious. If it is about racial equality i dont know one person who does not think that is a good thing.

But people who want to educate us on things and usually talk down rather then educate as you can see by the tone of some in here, dont realise that a lot actually know a fair bit about it.

Even people in the circles i move in say things like the brits were bastards in India back in the day. That is not dismissing it, but it is nothing our generation or even our fathers did.

Someone said much earlier in this thread about the workshops, i imagine my family as my fathers side were no great shakes would have experienced that. Where do you stop when you go trying to apportion blame for the past.

Im all for an inquiry into why black people are dying in police custody and getting more ethnics into higher education and a more just and equal society.

But lecturing about the past. Nah not interested and from my voting patterns im a pretty good gauge of the general public. I dare say the further people go with this the less the majority of society will actually listen.

 

[DTA]

Let’s look at that legatum prosperity index and those 10 countries above the uk.
Aside from Germany, we are infinitely more populated than all of these. Luxembourg?! They have a pop of around 650k.
We’re not comparing like for like.

Most of those 10 do not have a history of mass immigration, multiculturalism and the demographic is generally a homogenous one.[/QUOTE]

Have you looked at the list?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Anyone in central London able to confirm for me how much black lives matter when the weather's a bit brick?

I honestly think their protesting as much about 10 years of conservative rule and about the idiot in the white house. Which i get and to a degree go along with. If you go back over the generations when the traditional left have been out of power for a bit they get a bit uptey.

Starmer will win the next election and the idiots will think he will change things when he is just another Blair/Cameron.